Evidence of meeting #40 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was religious.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, As an Individual
Do you mean state-building in Syria and Iraq?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
I apologize, but you have only about 30 seconds for your answer.
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, As an Individual
They've built different levels of government, which means police, courts, an educational system, and law enforcement agencies. You can see that they are doing very well in Syria and Iraq. This is ISIS; this is the Islamic State.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
We'll finish off the first round with Mr. Garneau.
You have seven minutes, sir.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Thanks to all of you for being here and for your testimony.
First, Mr. Halevi, you mentioned that the master plan for this Islamic State caliphate goes all the way to Spain. That obviously embraces Israel.
I'm going to take advantage of your presence here, because of where you're coming from, and ask you what Israel's view is. Is it participating in the coalition in Iraq at the moment, and if so, in which way?
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, As an Individual
Israel is definitely worried, because Israel is also targeted by the Islamic State.
The Islamic State sets priorities. The first priority is to build a state in Syria and Iraq. This is the base for launching the second stage of jihad. They target specifically Saudi Arabia and Jordan. These are the next targets for the Islamic State.
The next target being defined is Israel. Israel is not the end. It's just one of the steps in order to launch the jihad further to unite the whole Muslim nation under one flag. It has been repeated once and again by ISIS that in launching jihad, the end goal of the jihad is Europe and the U.S., which means Rome, Spain, Austria, etc.
In this case, why Israel is important in the idea of this jihad is that the prophecies of Muhammad talk about three cities that must be liberated: Istanbul, Jerusalem—al-Quds—and Rome. These are the preconditions for the emergence of the messiah.
The issue here is that it's not just a fairytale. This is a tenet in the Islamic faith. That's why it has become so attractive to Muslims. They see, and I'm monitoring their work in the Middle East and also here in Canada by radical Muslims, how it comes true, how the Islamic State and the restoration of the glory of the Islamic era of Muhammad, after Muhammad, is being realized. Even if Israel is gone, if Israel does not exist anymore, it does not stop the Islamic struggle in order to make the world of Allah become dominant. This is what they are saying. It is repeated once and—
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
I'm sorry, but my time is limited.
Can you tell me whether Israel is involved at the moment?
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, As an Individual
I think there are two silent partners to the coalition. One is Israel and the second is Iran. They are not involved in the coalition officially, but both countries have interests in the area. We see it from time to time in different actions that are taken by both countries.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Farr, you mentioned, and I agree with you, that ultimately religious freedom is essential to stability and security in that area. That's a very tall order. The bishop spoke about the history of difficulties and the persecution of Christians. We had the Yazidis speak to us last week. It's a very tall order. Even within Muslim sects, there is a great deal of conflict.
Mr. Halevi mentioned that there are some imams here in Canada who may be preaching a form of extremism, Wahabbi or otherwise. How does one address that in this country, in your opinion—I don't know if there are similar examples in the United States—bearing in mind freedom of expression and freedom of religion? How does one address that here in Canada if there are imams—I'm not talking about individuals; I'm talking about imams as church leaders—who may be preaching a form of extremism that we do not believe is acceptable?
Director, Religious Freedom Project, Georgetown University, As an Individual
It's a tough question. It's a tough question for any democratic society, including my own.
As I was trying to indicate in my remarks before, I think the answer is greater religious freedom, that is, to encourage other imams to take the floor and to denounce extremism. I think the way to counter this kind of speech is better speech. Now, that's a typically U.S. way of approaching the problem, and as I say, it hasn't always worked.
But I do think that at the end of the day.... For example, next Monday we're having an event at Georgetown on this very issue: the experience of Muslim minorities in the west and elsewhere. There will be many who will argue with each other, and there will be American Muslims arguing with each other about what their own religion requires. I think that's healthy. It's not always pleasant. I happen to be a Catholic, and I believe there are routine defamations of my own religion in the American press. But the answer is not to outlaw it: it is better speech.
I think religious freedom is the answer to these imams, to encourage others to counter them publicly and bring them out, and to provide other alternatives to Canadian Muslims who are listening to these people.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
I was very pleased to participate with members and an imam of the Ahmadiyya community, a Muslim sect, about two weeks ago in Montreal, and they were doing exactly that. Hopefully we'll see more of that.
Mr. Halevi, you mentioned that Iran is a silent partner. We certainly know they have been militarily involved in Iraq. How do you view that?
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, As an Individual
One of the root causes of the conflict is the Sunni-Shiite rift in the Middle East. You could say that the main interest of Iran is to curb ISIS. The interest of Iran goes in Lebanon to the Hezbollah, in Syria to the Alawites. Iraq is mainly Shiite, and their explicit aspirations are to dominate what they call the Persian Gulf. So for them, that is the real threat embodied by ISIS, and for them to defeat the Islamic State is the main priority, so they are going to be involved in curbing, stopping ISIS, and they will do their utmost to do that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
I will start the second round with five minutes for each party.
We will start with Mr. Goldring, please.
December 9th, 2014 / 9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
Thank you for appearing here today. It has been very interesting.
Who is supporting ISIS? We hear that they receive funding from the oil refineries they have taken over, but that can't be all of it. How large or extensive are they? Some say it's a few thousand radicals. Where is their funding coming from mostly, and what can be done about the funding sources?
Mr. Farr, maybe you'd have some idea, or Mr. Halevi.
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, As an Individual
First of all, millions of dollars have been funnelled to Syria since 2011 to support the fighters/militants/jihadists/mujahedeen that fought against the al-Assad regime. Some of the money went to other groups like Jabhat al-Nusra and groups that really are affiliated or joined the Islamic State later. The Islamic State took control of the banks and robbed the banks in Iraq. They got funds from this source. They also export oil that goes to Turkey.
According to Canadian jihadists who joined ISIS, or joined the Islamic State in Iraq, they said—I'm speaking specifically of a Calgarian, who is in Mosul right now. He said that the conditions in Iraq for those who join ISIS are excellent. They are being paid a monthly salary, and the Islamic State takes care of their families. They pay all their expenses—
Conservative
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, As an Individual
Yes, that's what I want to add. We have to look into that from an Iraqi perspective, not from a Canadian perspective, which means that the cost of living in Syria and Iraq is totally different from what we expect here in Canada, and with more money, you can do much more. I think it should be a priority for the coalition to work hard on the specific issue of funding. I think the pressure should be put on Turkey because Turkey is the key issue here in this case because of the oil being transferred to the Turkish market.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
We have representatives here, certainly Christian and Jewish, but we don't have anybody who is Muslim. How can we engage the Islamic community to stand up and be vocal on an international basis? Many of the organizations that would otherwise be able to have a voice on this, you would think would come from international.... Is there any type of international Islamic organization of parliamentarians or part of Islam itself that can have credibility?
It's very tough for us to have credibility, as Christians and Jews, on issues like this, but how do you get this credibility of significant Islamic voices condemning what is happening internationally?
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, As an Individual
First of all, the major Islamic organizations in Canada repeatedly denounced, condemned, the Islamic State, but in analyzing the position of the Muslim community in Canada, I noticed that possibly all the major organizations also oppose any military action against the Islamic State. They condemn the Islamic State, but oppose taking actions against the Islamic State. In his weekly sermon, one of the imams in Scarborough, Ontario criticized the Canadian government for joining the coalition. He said—I'm quoting him—that Canada should be neutral toward ISIS, so not take any actions against ISIS, and because of that, he mentioned the Canadian foreign policy, etc.
If you denounce and condemn the Islamic State, how can you stay neutral toward the Islamic State? Why not take any action? Well, the meaning of not taking action against the Islamic State.... What will happen? The Islamic State will not stop. They'll continue to expand. I think it's very important to encourage the....
Also, there's one more point. We saw massive demonstrations during the summer against other issues. The Muslim community went out in the streets last summer and in recent years. In this case, we don't see, beyond the declarations, any action on the street to convey the message to the masses and by the masses.
I think it is very important to speak to the Muslim community leaders in order to convey the message that the Islamic State and its values should not be tolerated. The meaning of that, also, is to condemn those imams and the organizations that spread ideas that are similar to those of the Islamic State.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you very much.
I'll just remind everybody that Dr. Farr is going to be with us probably just until the end of this round.
I believe, Dr. Farr, you can stay with us until the end of this round, and then you'll have to go. Is that correct?
Director, Religious Freedom Project, Georgetown University, As an Individual
That's correct. I'm happy to stay until the end of the round though.
Conservative
Director, Religious Freedom Project, Georgetown University, As an Individual
That's correct.
