Foreign Affairs Committee on Jan. 27th, 2015

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

In terms of the various countries that are involved in assisting, the 25 countries you identified, is Turkey an active participant in helping at this stage?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

I don't want to characterize Turkey's role; I think it's for them to do so. They are an important player in the Middle East. They're certainly part of a broader effort to bring a successful resolution to this problem.

In terms of characterizing how big or small a role they're playing in the coalition, that's a separate question.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Here in Canada we tend to think of the separation of church and state, yet in many of the countries in the Middle East there's very little separation. I think that would be fair to say. What other countries...? Predominantly in the 25 countries, is Russia sharing a role in this too, out of concern for what is happening?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

Again, I don't want to speak for the Russian government.

As you and everyone know, Russia has played a significant and visible role in terms of supporting the government of President Assad in Syria, and that's obviously not an approach that we would share. We have been encouraging others to see that President Assad has lost his legitimacy in Syria, among his people, because of the brutality of his regime. We've been encouraging others to understand that we need a change there.

In Iraq, I think even the Russians would admit that the new government is something worth supporting. It's a new government that wants to govern for all Iraqis, and we and almost everyone else want to encourage that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks very much.

We're going to do a third round, starting with Mr. Anderson.

Sir, you have five minutes.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to follow up on what Mr. Dewar brought up about the goal or the interest being degrading ISIL. I'm just wondering if you can tell us a little bit about the impact of ISIL in the area. They had made some threats in Egypt and towards Jordan and had put some pressure on Lebanon. I'm wondering if you can give us an update on whether their influence is growing or diminishing. What threat do they or their groups hold over those nations right now?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

We believe they pose a threat not only in Iraq and Syria but also to the whole region. Indeed globally, they're a threat to all of us.

I remind the committee that ISIL is an extremist Sunni group whose goal is the establishment of a single transnational Islamic state based on sharia law. They want to replicate the caliphate of more than a thousand years ago, which spanned every country in the Middle East, from Spain right through to the subcontinent. That is their stated goal.

They have had, more or less, some success in other countries of the region. There is adherence here, there, and everywhere, including in Canada, as we know. But I believe that militarily they've been stalled. The military intervention has worked in the sense of stalling their forward assault and in some cases has rolled them back. Again, on that front, on Thursday I'd like to let the ministers speak to just how much success has been achieved against ISIL.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Can we switch over to Kurdistan then? We've had some testimony about the area. We had, actually, some conflicting testimony from the Yazidi community. We had some groups that seemed to be very happy with the reception they received. We had one group that was not as happy with the reception they got as they moved into that area. Christian communities seemed to be fairly happy to be able to find safe sanctuary there.

I'm wondering if you could give us an update on the on-the-ground reality in the Kurdish region as winter is progressing.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

Kurdistan for many years, including during the time I served there, between 2010 and 2013, was a place of refuge for thousands and thousands of Iraqis who felt they needed a haven. That's only been augmented by the recent crisis.

I don't know that I would characterize one community as being happier than another. My experience has been that the KRG, the Kurdistan Regional Government, has been most welcoming and most tolerant of all communities and has offered support above and beyond what even they were capable of providing. That is why people have chosen to flee there. They know it is a place where the threat is reduced.

My colleague will speak to the ways we have been assisting these communities.

Leslie.

[Leslie Norton]

Currently 40% of the internally displaced in Iraq are residing in the KRG region. That's actually down from 47% later last year. However, it's still a remarkable number of people who are either residing with host communities or living in churches, mosques, and unfinished buildings. About 33% are living in that type of context.

In terms of our assistance, as I said, humanitarian assistance is being provided through partners in this region. When I visited Dohuk, we went right up to the Turkish border. At that time we saw Syrian refugees coming across. They had made their way into Turkey. They had been bused to this part of Turkey, and then they were being brought into the Kurdistan area.

Apart from the internally displaced people—

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Was the Turkish government facilitating that?

[Leslie Norton]

Yes, they were facilitating that.

Apart from the 40% of the internally displaced people who are residing in this region, there are also over 200,000 refugees from Syria, and the government continues to be very generous and open to receiving these people who require assistance.

I had also met with the governors in both Erbil and in Dohuk, and they continue to maintain an openness and a generosity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move over to Mr. Saganash for five minutes.

[Romeo Saganash, NDP, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I too would like to greet the witnesses who are here today and thank them. I will use my time to ask two short questions.

First, Mr. Gwozdecky talked about our long-term engagement with Iraq because it is in our interests. I think that is what he said. The official opposition called for an increase in the assistance provided to minorities, refugees and victims of sexual violence in the region.

Every day on television, we see the damage that bombings have caused to infrastructure, bridges, hospitals, schools, and so on. Based on what you know about the situation on the ground, has an assessment been done of the long-term assistance needed in the region to meet the basic needs for housing, food, health and education? Do you have an idea of the type of assistance that the region will need in the medium and long term? I am particularly concerned about that issue.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

Thank you very much for that question.

In the long term, I don't believe that Iraq will be in need of external assistance, because it is a wealthy country. Under normal circumstances, it's a country that can provide for all its own needs. Under the current circumstances, it does require help from its friends and foreign partners. That's what we're engaged in right now.

Do you have anything further to add, Leslie?

[Leslie Norton]

In a crisis, we provide humanitarian assistance first. When the conflict ends, we focus on rebuilding and long-term development. We are not there yet, but when the time comes, we will enter discussions with the World Bank and the UNDP. They play a role in development.

We are working on scenarios, but everyone recognizes that now is not the time to start rebuilding in the parts of Iraq where infrastructure is lacking.

[Romeo Saganash, NDP, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I would like to ask Mr. Bennett a question.

I believe that, in the United Nations Security Council resolutions 2170 and 2178, the UN calls on member states to work with educational, cultural and religious institutions to counter incitement to terrorism.

Earlier, you briefly talked about your work and efforts both over there and here. You also talked about a round table held in Toronto. What are we doing for the at-risk groups in Iraq and Syria? What work is being done on the ground? Are efforts being made in the region?

Those questions are for Mr. Bennett.

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

In terms of on-the-ground types of activities, as I mentioned previously, we're trying to work as much as we can with countries in the region that have an openness towards advancing religious freedom. Again I would reference the Jordanians, in particular Prince Ghazi who has been very active in advancing reform efforts within Islam.

One of the great activities that the Jordanians have had under way for some time now is the Amman Message, which seeks to work within Sunni Islam to have a common approach that is open to pluralism and open to religious freedom in terms of how sharia and Islamic interpretation is undertaken. We will be engaging with the Jordanians on that particular initiative.

We have, as was previously announced, a new project in Iraq with Minority Rights Group International, which will seek to work with different communities to build greater interconfessional dialogue, because one of the problems that we see with religious persecution is often a breakdown in that dialogue. Our office always tries to look at what some of the foundational issues are that need to be addressed, so as to avert or limit the degree of religious persecution. That means encouraging that type of dialogue and supporting education that does not demonize the other but rather seeks to advance a pluralist understanding.

As Mr. Gwozdecky mentioned, both Iraq and Syria are very diverse, multi-faith societies. When we're advancing religious freedom from the Canadian perspective we do so from our pluralist perspective. These are countries that are perfectly well suited to that type of engagement. But right now there are obviously these significant crises under way that we're trying to grapple with, together with our allies in the region.

We are currently also engaging a number of different faith communities and NGOs that have the capacity to partner with us in those countries in the region, such as Lebanon and Jordan and also in Israel and other parts of the region, to try to create the environment whereby we can promote things such as dialogue, broader education, and advanced pluralism, often in very small types of projects that can have a broader impact.

We continue to engage with different religious communities, including those that have the capacity to do that sort of work such as the Mennonite Central Committee, the Catholic Near East Welfare Association, and the Tony Blair Faith Foundation. We continue to reach out to them for new approaches.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

We are going to finish off the third round with Ms. Brown for five minutes.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Ambassador Bennett, I am just going to follow up on that question with a couple of comments and then your thoughts.

Back in December we had Thomas Farr who is the director of the Religious Freedom Project at Georgetown University here as a witness. You would be very happy to hear that he said in his comments that our policy in Canada on religious freedom is so important and he said that we should resource the Office of Religious Freedom and give the ambassador everything he needs to develop policy. I'm sure you are happy to hear that.

He commented about the need to train diplomats and that we should be training all of our diplomatic service in issues of religious freedom. He said that diplomacy, if successful, would ensure peace. Now, on the other hand, in that same meeting we also had Jonathan Halevi and he was from the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. He made the comment that the objective of ISIS is to conquer Rome and the Vatican as the centre of Christianity.

So if we want to train our diplomats the way Mr. Farr said we should—he talked about it being the linchpin—how do you see that happening? What training should we be giving? How can your office assist? Is there more Canada can do?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

I always knew that Tom Farr was a very wise man, so this confirms that.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

The importance of training diplomats has been recognized by a number of countries including Canada in terms of the area of religious freedom. This comes back to something that not only our offices but also many of my colleagues have observed when they've been engaged in postings overseas or even through their work here in Ottawa. When they look out into these countries, the vast majority of countries in the world have a very strong religious sense. Religion and religious faith dominate or have a place not only within a perceived cultural dialogue but also within a socio-economic political dialogue, whereby religion and religious faith have a very prominent role within society.

We live in fairly secularized societies. There's been a recognition, I think, by my colleagues and by me, and also by colleagues in other countries in the west that if we don't understand this reality, these countries where religion plays a dominant role—a lot of the time for good but also sometimes for ill—then we risk developing a very serious diplomatic blind spot. So, from the beginning of the office's existence, we have engaged in developing training modules for our diplomats.

At our first full-day training session, which was last year, we sought to highlight the importance of advancing religious freedom within the context of international human rights, and also in the Canadian context of advancing pluralism and supporting democracy and democratic development in the world. We hope to expand that training to a two-day program this year, since it was oversubscribed to last year in Foreign Affairs, to give diplomats a chance to engage in various case studies. This year I think one of them will be on the situation in Iraq and Syria, and how you confront very entrenched conflicts that are often not simply a product of the current environment but that also have some historical antecedents that are important for us to understand.

Each year I also speak to outgoing heads of missions. We discuss religious freedom and how to approach it when we engage in countries where there are serious violations of religious freedom. Our allies, including the Americans, the British, and those in a number of other countries, now have in place training programs that recognize the need to equip diplomats even with the language to talk about religion, and not to be afraid about engaging religion, even though we're often conditioned in our own sort of secular society to not talk about it. In these countries we need to have that understanding, so we certainly see training and enabling our diplomats to engage in this way as being very crucial.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That completes the three rounds.

We have another 10 minutes or so. Does everyone want one more round, then? Does that make some sense?

Why don't I start with Mr. Dewar for about four minutes or so, and I'll finish with Mr. Scarpaleggia? If we have shorter questions, we can finish.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Maybe I'll just continue questioning Mr. Bennett.

I was happy to hear that a lot of the aid that was pledged has been delivered, but our concern is the priorities that we make in terms of the military versus the humanitarian side. I'm just wondering if you can help us here, because a lot of resources are needed immediately on the ground, and getting rapid action to get quick results is important. I'm wondering what point your budget is at.

The last time we had a conversation with you, a significant amount of your budget wasn't allocated. I would argue that there's a need on the ground not to do workshops per se—I have nothing against those—but to protect minorities, the Yazidis, Mandaeans, and others. Where are you within your budget? In 2013-14, I think you had 69% that wasn't allocated. Are you getting the money out the door and investing on the ground, or is that still an issue for you?