I wrestle with that, because I think part of what we have to have is a longer time horizon. We have to understand—and I think the academics here would be able to do a better job than I—what are some of the markers along the way to show that it's not just a safe space, it's not just a bunch of people sitting around talking forever just to each other, but that things are starting to change. How do you start to measure that subtle change? If you're a sociologist you would know. But you need a longer time to be able to understand that and you need the right things.
