Evidence of meeting #117 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chair  Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)
Fredrick Wangabo Mwenengabo  Ambassador to the United Nations of Civil Society Organizations, Peace and Human Rights Advocate, and Executive Director, East and Central African Association for Indigenous Rights
Marc Kapenda  As an Individual
Julienne Lusenge  Director, Congolese Women's Fund, President and Cofounder, Solidarité Féminine pour la Paix et le Développement Intégral
Yvette Yende-Ashiri  Research Coordinator, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

3:55 p.m.

The Chair Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

Good afternoon, everybody. I'm going to call this meeting to order.

We have guests with us today who will provide testimony for our study on the situation in Somalia, South Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo. Our guests today are here specifically on the situation in the DRC.

We are very pleased to welcome Fredrick Mwenengabo. He is the executive director, ambassador to the United Nations of civil society organizations and a peace and human rights advocate. He is with the East and Central African Association for Indigenous Rights. Welcome.

We also have Marc Kapenda, who is a professor. Welcome, Professor Kapenda.

Anthony Njoku is going to be here as well.

I believe we're going to hear from Professor Kapenda and Mr. Mwenengabo, and then we will open it up to questions, which I know my colleagues will have lots of, and the three of you can participate.

Given that we're running a little short on time, if you can keep your remarks to about eight minutes, that would be great. Thank you.

Mr. Mwenengabo, would you begin, please?

3:55 p.m.

Fredrick Wangabo Mwenengabo Ambassador to the United Nations of Civil Society Organizations, Peace and Human Rights Advocate, and Executive Director, East and Central African Association for Indigenous Rights

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for inviting me to appear before this honourable Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development to talk about the situations in Somalia, South Sudan and in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

I accept this opportunity with respect, honour and humility. I hope my contribution will contribute to peace building and development in DRC and in Africa as a whole.

Mr. Chair, we may agree that the situation in Somalia, South Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo are very similar. They are all fragile states and they are characterized by weak government, institutionalized corruption, mass killings of civilians and abuse against women and girls. However, with your permission, let me focus on DRC. In the development of my opinions, you will understand the reasons why.

Before I give my witness opinion, please allow me to express gratitude to Canada for the chance to be part of this compassionate nation. I'm proud to be a Canadian. I also know that there are many new Canadians who feel like me. It is for that reason that I sit here today to build a bridge between the DRC, a country where I was born, and Canada, a country I now call home.

The DRC has suffered a lot. It has suffered from numerous wars and genocides since the time of King Leopold, who alone killed as many as 10 million of 20 million Congolese at the turn of the 20th century as he plundered and pillaged the country. In 1960, when the Congo gained independence from Belgium and Patrice Lumumba became its first ever elected prime minister, a conspiracy by the United States Central Intelligence Agency—the CIA—and Belgium led first to the sponsoring of a secessionist movement and then ultimately to his assassination, barely one year into his term.

Then we were given Mobutu Sese Seko as our president of the country. He equally plunged the country into corruption, causing the collapse of all institutions, and the DRC became what it is for now.

Mr. Chair, I know I don't have enough time, but my sitting here is really to appeal to this honourable committee. I would have loved to read all my comments, but I'm not going to read them. From time to time, when I speak about the situation in the Congo, I become very emotional. I will request your indulgence if that happens to me. Already, I can feel it.

The Congo is in very bad shape as we talk. From 1996 to 2001, the Congo lost over six million civilians. Picture it: six million. Take that number out of Canada. Think about it. These are our sisters, our mothers and our brothers. If I was one of them I wouldn't be sitting here. It's real people.

From 2001 to 2003, three million people were slaughtered. Today, on a daily basis, 3,000 people are dying. They are dying from brutality, violence, wars and related issues such as diseases, lack of infrastructure and so on.

When Mobutu became an embarrassment, we allowed Rwanda to go. We supported an invasion led by Rwanda and Uganda to go to the Congo. This is how we lost five million to six million people.

We went on. We supported the second invasion, and we formed different rebel groups. This is how we lost all of these people.

The Congo has gained a dubious recognition as the world capital of rape. The UN reports that 48 women are raped every hour, and this is only for the cases that are reported. These are our mothers, our sisters, our wives and so on.

I may stand here as someone with experience on Congo, as someone with an understanding of the issues of Congo, but equally, I sit here as a victim because I'm in that picture myself. Without going very far, I'm telling you that Congo is going to have a catastrophe that has not been seen, if there are no changes for that country.

I'm sure you'll ask your questions, but I have a few recommendations that I'll proposed to this honourable committee. These recommendations include creating a transitional government, because there will not be any proper elections. There is no institution that is legal that is going to organize those elections.

Second, I'm requesting this honourable committee to help us and to work with the Congolese to reform the justice of Congo. From that transition, we can have disarmament, demobilization and the rehabilitation of combatants. Then we can have an opportunity to promote democracy and civic education, and therefore, to organize proper elections.

Today, Kabila has refused to accommodate the international community to participate in the Congolese elections and to help us. He has wanted to remain in power—actually, he is in power today—beyond his constitutional mandate.

I'm requesting of Canada, in our own best short-term and medium-term interests, that we help Congo. I've submitted my views in writing and I've detailed what the help of Canada will bring to Congo, to a nation with such immense opportunities, which will give us a chance to realize these within the population and with its natural resources.

In conclusion, may I add that I will answer any questions you may have regarding the proposals and recommendations I have just made. I think this is in the interest of Canada.

I am asking Canada to approach the troubles in the Congo with in mind Canada's image, interest, honour and responsibilities both at home and abroad.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you very much.

For the record, your remarks are online, and we'll make sure that they're redistributed again to all of the members. We do have your whole statement online.

Professor Kapenda, we also have a copy of your remarks that have been distributed. If you want to summarize those, that would be good, and then we can go into questions.

November 28th, 2018 / 4:05 p.m.

Marc Kapenda As an Individual

Thank you very much for the opportunity to be part of this testimony.

I would like to make my presentation. It will be in French.

There might be some differences between what I'm saying and the summary that you have received. I wanted to restrict things, so that I could present within the time you have given us.

I will begin by describing the situation in the DRC.

The DRC has 80 million inhabitants spread out over a vast territory. It is the second-largest African country, just after Algeria. Its 80 million hectares of arable land can feed the African continent, and part of the world.

The DRC has also been called a ''geological scandal'', given the rich diversity of minerals it has, among other things: coltan, gold, copper, oil, diamonds, silver, zinc, uranium, manganese, tin, germanium, radium, bauxite, iron ore, coal, hydroelectricity, wood, and so on. And despite that, a recent United Nations human development index ranked it 178th out of 188 countries. This makes the DRC one of the poorest countries on the planet.

How can a country so rich in natural and human resources be so poor? The recurrent reason for the DRC's delayed development is the authoritarian political system, which is both repressive and permissive.

As opposed to the ideal type of state described by Max Weber, the Congolese state still bears the marks of the patrimonialist system that has existed from its origins in 1885, when the Berlin Conference made it the property of King Leopold II without the consent of its inhabitants.

Since then, despite independence and the presence of Congolese people at the head of the country today, the economy is still outward-looking. The political system, which appears to be republican, is in reality neo-patrimonial, that is to say, authoritarian and characterized by a high level of generalized violence. The prosperity of organized gangs that are there in addition to the rife militia and other private, highly-armed protection services bear witness to the country's failure in the first duty of the state, which is to provide security for its citizens.

And to those indicators you must add the important and sustained role of appointments based on favours and not merit, at various administrative levels. Moreover, the law is applied differently, according to the category of citizens involved. In addition, there is blind repression of peaceful demonstrations.

Furthermore, the development and implementation of public policy is frequently aligned with corporate interests. The authority of the state is missing at several levels. This is a state where repression cultivates intimidation and discourages public participation. It is not concerned with the social contract, which in a republic gives the state the mission of ensuring the safety of persons and their property. Instead of that, personal enrichment, corruption and predation continue to prevail over ethics and legality.

The authoritarianism and permissiveness of the state, as described above, has a negative effect on all areas of life, political, economic and social. The centralization of power and the absence of political participation that accompanies it deprive the country of the opportunity for structural change conducive to developing the economy. When the economy languishes, so does society.

Let's talk about the social and humanitarian repercussions, more specifically.

Two decades of conflicts have left behind armed groups, foreign and local militia that still exploit our minerals, in addition to terrorizing the population. In the east of the country, in Beni, more particularly, and in the Kasai region, the knifing massacre of populations by armed groups continues despite the presence of the national army and of MONUSCO.

The unemployment rate in the DRC is estimated to be 51%, which explains the exodus of the Congolese who are looking for a better life, and have moved to neighbouring countries or elsewhere abroad these past years.

According to a UN estimate from January 2018, there are 540,000 refugees in the DRC, and 4.5 million displaced persons. Many of these were forced to choose exile because of the insecurity there, as is the case in Kasai. When shortly thereafter, asylum seekers were expelled from the host country, as was the case recently when Angola expelled some 250,000 Congolese refugees, this generated a serious humanitarian crisis that requires assistance.

In short, the Congolese state, rather than encouraging national productivity and developing markets that would be profitable for the country, has a permissive attitude which favours the illicit exploitation of resources. A change in government is needed.

If the elections announced for December 23 could take place in a transparent and credible way, the political change the population wishes to see, and the rule of law promised by parties such as the Union for Democracy and Social Progress, the UDSP, might well see the light of day, with the end of Kabila's mandate.

As Canadians, we must demonstrate the forward-looking responsibility discussed by Hans Jonas, so that the knowledge and means our society has at its disposal are used to facilitate the political change on the horizon in the Congo.

There are other effective things Canada can do. A Canadian law should hold Canadian organizations to account so that they behave ethically in their activities abroad, such as in the Congo. Canada's reputation is at stake.

Canada can see to it that armed groups in the eastern part of the country in Kasai and Katanga are opposed by international forces such as MONUSCO forces.

Given the presence of voting machines, the corrupt electoral lists, and the refusal of DRC authorities to accept international observers, Canada should not rush to recognize the results of the election planned for December 23, if that election is won by Kabila's anointed successor.

From a humanitarian perspective, displaced persons need transportation, food and housing. Canada can mitigate that suffering.

Should the election be postponed for any reason, we could invite Mr. Kabila, who is at the end of his mandate, to resign, so as to leave—

4:10 p.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Professor Kapenda, I'm going to have to ask if you can wrap up in the next minute. I do want to leave time for questions. We're unfortunately rushed.

We do have your comments, which we will get translated and distribute.

If you can wrap up, then we can have members ask questions. Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Marc Kapenda

With its long experience in organizing rightful elections, Canada could perhaps offer its assistance, over time, to train observers, by asking for the participation of Congolese persons who have settled in Canada and are willing to help in this area.

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you.

Let's go right into questions.

MP Aboultaif, go ahead, please.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Thank you very much.

The question follows the last note of Dr. Kapenda, regarding the election on December 23, if I am to truly believe that this is the date when the election is going to take place.

We have the UDPS, which is the Union for Democracy and Social Progress. It's a political party in the DRC. It was founded on February 15, 1982. I also believe that there's a UDPS Federation of Canada, which I believe you are involved in.

My understanding is that this is part of the basic organization of the outside world. Within the UDPS in Canada, the members are grouped into sections that represent the geographic boundaries of each province in Canada. There are representative of the UDPS in Canada and they are appointed by the party president.

What roles do the international wings of a political party play in the political system back home? How are the diaspora from the DRC to participate in your electoral system? What are the challenges that they will be facing, based on their actions?

4:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Marc Kapenda

I may have a problem with the interpretation, but I think you understood me.

I will explain as best I can the role UDSP representatives play outside of the country.

UDSP Canada is a civil organization based in Canada whose purpose is to inform the Government of Canada and the Canadian public about the situation in the Congo, and it tries to influence them in the right direction, which is the direction of change.

The UDSP has been fighting since 1982 for political change in the Congo. The party advocates for a respectful, law-abiding state, one that will respect not only human rights, but also the normal missions of a country, the first of which should be to ensure the safety of its citizens. If such a state could be set up, we would see good participation of civil society in the economy and the proper functioning of the country.

To my knowledge, this is also what UDSP militants advocate in other countries. They generally work in co-operation with other Congolese groups, even if they are not part of UDSP.

I will now answer the second question concerning the dangers these people face when they go back to the country.

Some of them are well-known for having spoken out openly or opposed the country's political system. Generally, there is a file on those people in the country. If they go back there, they may well be harmed, and may be kidnapped or killed in a way that cannot be traced back to the state. It will be made to look like an accident or a kidnapping; and then people will say that the person just disappeared. Those are the risks those people face. However, there are less visible actors who can go back to the country without running into too many problems.

I don't know if I answered your question properly. If you need further clarification, I can continue.

4:15 p.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you.

MP Saini, go ahead, please.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you very much, all three of you, for being here today.

Mr. Mwenengabo, I was really touched by your remarks. Actually, I feel the same emotion and the same sadness when it comes to the DRC, because of all the countries in Africa, it is probably the one that has the most potential.

If we look at the current political climate right now, you have elections coming up on December 23. You have three completely different characters running for the presidency. Whether you have Shadary, who is being supported by Kabila; whether you have Martin Fayulu, who does not have broad-based support; or whether you have Tshisekedi, who does not have broad-based support, ultimately, in the last 58 years of the DRC, there has been no peaceful transition from one political power to the other political power.

If you look at the situation right now, it is not one armed conflict, there are hundreds of armed conflicts that are going on with small groups from village to village. But the potential there, if you look at it right now.... The estimate from the IMF is that there is 24 trillion U.S. dollars' worth of minerals and precious metals there.

The DRC is not—

Sorry...?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

That's why they're fighting.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Yes, but the fighting is beyond that, right?

Potentially with the kind of resources it has.... What we are doing so far has not worked. There has to be some greater ambition than doing things piecemeal by piecemeal. I know my friend thinks it's beyond that, but would it not be that we need something bigger or grander to solve the problem?

Initially, there would be an upfront cost, but over the course of time, that could be recouped. If there was a more organized approach to the economy, more transparency—something the equivalent of what happened after the Second World War when it came to the Marshall plan, where we had all these forces who came in, solved the problem once and for all—that could be the jewel that could uplift all of Africa, including the countries that are continuous on those borders.

Should we think with that level of ambition?

4:20 p.m.

Ambassador to the United Nations of Civil Society Organizations, Peace and Human Rights Advocate, and Executive Director, East and Central African Association for Indigenous Rights

Fredrick Wangabo Mwenengabo

Mr. Raj, let me thank you, because you've really summarized the ideas I have. You're a world player, and if we can all think this way, I think Congo can be a peaceful land and a land of opportunity. Why do I say this? It's because, as you have rightly put it, the situation in Congo has been there for the last 50 to 100 years, and all approaches that we've taken, if we say they are successful, then we don't recognize all of these millions of people who are dying. We have failed. For us to be successful, we need new approaches, new momentum to recreate this Congo and we will all benefit.

What do I mean by what I'm saying? I actually spoke about transition. What I meant by transition is exactly that. You mentioned all political parties, and we've been recycling all of the same people—politicians—over and over for 50 years, but we are expecting different solutions while we're just recycling those problems. None of the people you've mentioned have not been a player. They have participated in the destruction of Congo.

I want to suggest to this honourable committee that the solution for Congo is to make it, under UN resolution, a protectorate state of the UN. This protectorate state will give a chance for the youth, who have been suffering, who have everything to lose and who have everything to gain, to start rebuilding their country. They will work with the UN. They will work with international partners, and those are the only people who can organize elections. These parties we have cannot properly organize elections. Kabila refused to leave power. He took his own crony, his uncle, to re-run, and he took power from his father, so what will really happen?

This protectorate state that I'm talking about has worked everywhere. There are many examples and Congo is not a standalone example. For instance, we did this in East Timor. The United Nations helped to create that transitional government. We had this in Eastern Slavonia, and now we have it in Kosovo and Canada is helping through NATO.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

There's a question I have, and I have very limited time and I appreciate your comments, and I appreciate the understanding of being more ambitious.... The only problem is that you have other state actors who are involved in DRC who may not see eye-to-eye with us and who have a greater infiltration and penetration in the economy.

How do we bring all these people around the table to have a discussion where human rights, women's rights, indigenous rights, environmental rights, all those line up in such a way that there's no conflict between what the UN or what the west wants to see and wants to see the DRC develop into, and what some other state actors—currently China—that may not have the same mindset as us want?

4:25 p.m.

Ambassador to the United Nations of Civil Society Organizations, Peace and Human Rights Advocate, and Executive Director, East and Central African Association for Indigenous Rights

Fredrick Wangabo Mwenengabo

We need to support the Congolese. Every time the Congolese have wanted to take those opportunities, they have been suppressed. I can tell you in 2015, in January, when people tried to do a peaceful demonstration against the Kabila regime, those demonstrations were heavily reprimanded: 47 people were killed. After, in a mass grave, they found 425 bodies of people who were killed. The international community did not stand by us Congolese.

With regard to your question about how we bring stakeholders in the Congo—those who have interests—I can tell you that the people who have interests in the Congo are not the politicians. With the politicians, their interest is their money and the power to control.

The people who have all to lose are the 70%, the young—youth below 30—who have never worked, who have only known suffering, who are resilient; and millions of women, who are being raped on a daily basis, who have nothing to hope for apart from prayers, apart from hopes that tomorrow might be better.

I'm saying that if we look from that perspective, we have religious actors, for example, who are a strong institution. We have well-meaning Congolese, and—

4:25 p.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you. I'm going to have to move to the next question. Hopefully, you'll get a chance to answer then.

MP Duncan, the floor is yours.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Kapenda, I look at your list of recommendations, and they're definitely a list of all the things that need to be done to stabilize any nation, including Congo. The problem is, how is any of that possible until you have a stable government?

I'm looking at the recommendation for a transitional government. I know a number of nations go through that. Sometimes after the election, the vice-president takes over. There's a transitional government for a while.

My colleagues have said that there doesn't appear to be any one candidate in the coming election, except for the one people don't want, because he's the one creating all the terror—at least the government-driven terror. How would you recommend that Canada would be involved in supporting a transitional government? Have you put that recommendation to the United Nations?

I note that there's already a huge investment by the UN in peacekeepers in the stabilization mission, yet they haven't been able to have any effect. My understanding would be that the support for a stable, peaceful nation is going to have to come from the people of Congo. Surely it's going to have to take somebody in the Congo to bring everybody together. I can't imagine some external force coming in—Canada, the United States, any other nation—and imposing some kind of transitional government and that going over well.

I would welcome what you mean by a transitional government. In addition, I'll just throw out a couple of questions to you.

Absolutely, there needs to be references to the International Criminal Court. First of all, you have to get a hold of those people, get them out of the country and bring them to the court. Certainly we want to have retraining for the child soldiers. However, with a lot of the obviously really great platform that you have for reform for the country, you need to have the stabilization first.

I guess what I would ask is what you're asking of Canada that Canada could do alone, or are you asking us to make requests of others to do something, for example, towards the transitional government?

4:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Marc Kapenda

Is that question to me or the others?

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

I would welcome it from both of you.

4:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Marc Kapenda

I think I will begin and take advantage of the opportunity to go back to the previous question.

I would like to say that the current problem in the Congo is the state, the government. When I talk about the state, I mean the government, the political system that is in place. As I said, that system has not changed much since Leopold II, or since independence. With the elimination of Joseph Kasavubu and the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, who was the symbol of independence, the country quickly went back to having incompetent leaders. Those leaders are not chosen by the population, but generally imposed from the outside, and that is where the problem lies.

However, there are alternate solutions. Indeed, contrary to what my colleague said, and what I just heard, there are a number of options in Congo. We mentioned parties like the UDSP, who are still waiting in the wings, and are critical of the poor functioning of the state. They have an alternate plan to offer. They want to bring in democracy, the rule of law, the respect of the Constitution, and so on. These people exist; they are real.

On this, you have to be careful about appearances. You can see, for instance, that Félix Tshisekedi is young and new, as is Martin Fayulu. However, Félix Tshisekedi is not only Félix Tshisekedi, but also the leader of the UDSP. He has a plan, the UDSP project. That party is very well organized in the Congo. It has enough leaders that could bring about rapid change in the Congo, even if they took over the government by themselves.

If you think that the issue in the country is the state, that political change is indeed possible, and that there are people available to bring it about, I don't see where the problem lies. The problem is the state, and it is that same state which today sees to it that elections do not unfold normally. However, that other government is in the wings and is fighting for better elections. These people have fought for the elimination of the voting machine, which they believe is an inadequate system. They think that because they believe it makes cheating possible. They fought for the electoral list to be reviewed. The Organisation internationale de la Francophonie audited the electoral list and concluded that it was indeed corrupt.

It's a struggle. We are asking for the support of a country like Canada for pressure to be exerted so that we can have better elections.

So, when—

4:35 p.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you, Professor Kapenda. I'm sorry, but I need to cut you off there. We have one last questioner.

MP Vandenbeld, please.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Thank you very much.

As you know, the Congo is close to my heart, since I directed a program to encourage dialogue among the political parties during the 2011 elections. Those elections were neither transparent nor credible.

Is it still possible that a credible and transparent election could be held on December 23? In addition, do you think a consensus could emerge around a common opposition candidate?

Mr. Wangabo said that a transitional government would be preferable, but that had been planned for in the December 31 agreement. However, the only result was that the election was postponed.

My question is for Mr. Kapenda.

4:35 p.m.

Ambassador to the United Nations of Civil Society Organizations, Peace and Human Rights Advocate, and Executive Director, East and Central African Association for Indigenous Rights

Fredrick Wangabo Mwenengabo

Before that, could I just add a question?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

In fact, I only have three minutes, which I share with my colleague, and I would really like to hear Mr. Kapenda's opinion about the elections.