Foreign Affairs Committee on May 2nd, 2019

[Anne Applebaum]

I would answer that by saying that what a lot of these groups want is power, and they think that either they can use this kind of language to galvanize people and consolidate a political party or, once they have power—even shared power, as we've seen in Italy—they will then attempt to take over the institutions of the state to make sure that they stay in power. This is what we saw happen in Hungary famously. It's what has happened in Poland, where they haven't succeeded yet, and you can see other extremists and far-right parties attempting to do the same in Europe.

They're interested in putting themselves and their members in charge. They think that they are the only people who legitimately have the right to rule in their countries. Once they are in charge, they will then seek to bend the rules in order to stay in power, and this of course is exactly why they're dangerous to democracy.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Guy Caron]

I'd like a quick answer. You're in London. With Brexit, for example, why didn't all the leaders of Brexit just leave without attempting to shape the things to come?

I have about 30 seconds, 20 seconds now.

[Anne Applebaum]

It was essentially because they didn't expect to win, and when they did, they didn't have a plan and didn't have a clear idea of what Brexit was supposed to look like, and they therefore spent the last three years arguing about that. Even at the very, very end when they had to vote, they couldn't agree among themselves what it meant to leave the EU and what their new relationship with Europe should be. I think your point about not having a clear goal is very pertinent in this situation.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Guy Caron]

Thank you very much.

The next speaker is Mr. Saini.

You have the floor for six minutes, Mr. Saini.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Good morning. Thank you very much for being here.

Professor Applebaum, I would like to start with you.

You wrote a recent article where you said hypocrisy links the populists. I agree to some extent, but you mentioned and referenced Babis of the Czech Republic, where he has a holding company and employs foreigners. You talked about Orban running a golden visa program. You talked about Kaczynski, who has controlled a company. These people came into power and they aggregated all these interests, but there must be another central theme as to why there is all this xenophobia. Politically, if you look at, for example, Orban, to rail against immigrants, he doesn't have as many immigrants in his country.

What is the central theme circulating amongst them to make sure or to espouse a certain policy when, as Mr. Pankowski said, there's not even that much immigration in Poland? That becomes a central theme when they don't have that many immigrants. They're still able to win elections because of it.

[Anne Applebaum]

You're pointing to a really important point, and Mr. Pankowski was absolutely right in that this is anti-Semitism in countries without Jews, and Islamophobia in countries with no Muslims.

By the way, that is why the fact that it's taking place in the unreal world of the Internet is also so important. This is about creating fictitious threats to the nation, and then the creation of parties who can save the nation from that threat. It's a type of psychological drama: “We can protect the nation; we will say that we will keep it pure and we will keep it clean.”

Then, of course, when they come into power, they make that argument even more forcefully: “We're here protecting the nation; therefore, we can be corrupt and we can steal, because only we can ensure that you are safe.”

It's playing on people's fears about safety or about continued prosperity, and with the fact that they're now part of a global economy and really part of a global information system, people see and hear or perceive many more threats than they would if they were just walking down the street.

It is a way of psychologically running and winning elections.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Pankowski, I want to pick up on a point that my colleague Mr. Wrzesnewskyj made.

When we look at the Visegrad nations, three of those nations are tilted towards Russia, yet Poland is not. There are certain politicians who have some allegiance to Russia. Why is Poland not tilting toward Russia when everybody else is, including the AfD in Germany and including Matteo Salvini in Italy?

Poland has not completely tilted. Why is that?

[Dr. Rafal Pankowski]

Again, national history has a lot to do with that. There is part of the Polish nationalist right that is traditionally pro-Russian, but overall, the historically motivated hostility towards Russia is also strong. Thus, you have both elements among the Polish nationalists.

Many of them who publicly express their hostility to Russia at the same time are quite clearly modelling their political ideology on the current regime in Moscow. There is no doubt about that. There might be some rhetoric of hostility towards Russia in international discourse on one hand; on the other hand, you have some very clear inspirations in terms of the type of ideology they are promoting.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I have one question for both of you.

Article 7 has been evoked against Poland and Hungary. It seems to me that for the EU, because of the rules of their parliament, the sanctions against Poland or Hungary can only be done in unanimity.

Technically, it seems to me that this has become normalized in Europe now. I'll start with the four Visegrad countries. When you look at those countries, article 7 has been invoked and the EU has no teeth to apply any sanctions. Do we not see the normalization of this type of xenophobia and what is the solution for us in North America to counteract that?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Guy Caron]

You have about 40 seconds.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Really?

[Anne Applebaum]

Yes, absolutely, that's an accurate description of what's happened. There is normalization. The EU has accepted de facto that these things happen.

I think Canada both continuing its representation and its discussion of the importance of liberal democracy is really important for your foreign policy and also for all the members of your political class to continue, but I would also stress to think hard about the Internet and think hard about how it is and why it is that this populist anti-democratic and xenophobic messaging is spreading so fast and in so many countries simultaneously. It seems to me that your country could play an important role in changing that reality.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Guy Caron]

Thank you very much, Ms. Applebaum and Mr. Saini.

Mr. Sidhu, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Jati Sidhu, Liberal, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you both for being here this morning.

I have a question for Professor Applebaum.

Recently you wrote an opinion piece about Russia's influence on Germany's far right. It seems that your opinion is that Russia's influence on world powers such as Germany and the United States is part of the effort to dismantle NATO. If that's the case, is this time for your suggestion to modernize NATO if NATO is to survive?

[Anne Applebaum]

Yes, I agree, absolutely, that one of Russia's clear geopolitical goals is to dismantle NATO as well as the European Union and to get American troops and North American troops out of Europe. So, yes, we're beginning to understand that Russia's assault on the west is not just military; it's also in the world of cyber, as one previous committee member mentioned, as well as in the information space. If you want to keep NATO together, if you care about it, and if it's an important institution for your security, then adding some of these other spheres to the concept of what defence means would be, yes, very important and very central, I think.

[Jati Sidhu, Liberal, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I'll share my time with Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Sidhu.

Dr. Pankowski, yesterday marked the 15th anniversary of the EU's largest single enlargement, the historic accession of former Soviet republics in countries of the former eastern bloc. The same day, far-right nationalists running in the upcoming EU parliamentary elections held an anti-EU sovereignty march through the streets of Warsaw. There were chants of “This is Poland, not Polin”, the Hebrew term for Poland.

For additional context, one of the largest independence day events in Poland is the annual march in Warsaw. It's organized by an alliance of far-right radical nationalist groups. In 2017 they had banners and slogans such as “white Europe of brotherly nations”, chants of “pure Poland”, “white Poland”and “refugees get out”. In 2018, the mayor of Warsaw tried to ban the march to no avail, partially because the organizers and the government coordinated a joint initiative for Poland's centennial of regaining independence. The symbols of radical nationalist groups that organized the event were prominent. Italian neo-fascist group Forza Nuova was also there, among other far-right visitors from around Europe.

Poland's independence day is meant to be a patriotic event. How do the lines between patriotism, nationalism and racism become blurred and then erased in Poland?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Guy Caron]

Inasmuch as I would like to hear the answer to this, we are at the end of the three minutes allocated. I'm sorry about that.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

A written answer would be appreciated. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Guy Caron]

We can call for written answers to the questions that have been asked. Thank you very much.

Mrs. Kusie, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Given the situations in Poland and Hungary, I referenced Madeleine Albright's recent book Fascism: A Warning. I wonder, Professor Pankowski, if you could please comment on the similarities between Europe presently and pre-World War II Europe with consideration for the great power struggle of Russia, China and the U.S. and the way forward in consideration of that scenario given the present context.

[Dr. Rafal Pankowski]

Obviously this is the kind of analogy that is made quite often nowadays. I would be cautious. I would not use it too easily. We are not witnessing the 1930s. On the other hand it is impossible not to notice that there are elements of our social and political reality that can be compared to the 1930s. There are movements that can be compared if we accept that fascism is the politics of total cultural homogeneity. There are movements out there, such as those marching in Warsaw on the 11th of November—or, in fact, yesterday—that have a very similar ideology. Even if they don't wear the swastika on their forehead, the ideology of total cultural homogeneity of hostility against all minorities is very present. In the Polish case, it is summed up by the slogan “Poland for the Polish”, which is also a slogan from the 1930s that symbolizes a hostility against all types of minority communities.

Some of those groups actually take their names from the groups that existed in Poland in the 1930s, such as the All-Polish Youth or the National-Radical Camp. That was actually banned in Poland in 1934 for inciting hatred. Today a group with the same name, the same symbolism and the same ideology is allowed to march in the streets of Warsaw, after the Holocaust, in the 21st century. In my view, that is truly alarming.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Guy Caron]

You have 30 seconds.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

We are seeing here in the Canadian political context the words “white supremacy” thrown around a lot. Certainly, while these types of terms and these actions are something that we should never stand for as a society, I can't help but wonder if, in using these terms, it creates more division and perhaps sours some would-be historically classical liberals into a misrepresentation and a misuse of the word.

Can you comment on that briefly, Professor Pankowski?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Guy Caron]

I'm sorry, but you're at the end of your time.

I would invite you to submit a question in writing to get an answer in writing.