Evidence of meeting #72 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dfi.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Diane Jacovella  Deputy Minister, International Development, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Hon. Robert Nault (Kenora, Lib.)) Liberal Bob Nault

Colleagues, I want to bring this meeting to order. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are doing a study of Canada's development finance initiative. As per the request of the committee, I would like to welcome Minister Marie-Claude Bibeau, who is the Minister of International Development and La Francophonie.

Minister, welcome to the committee.

With the minister are Diane Jacovella, deputy minister, international development, and Elissa Golberg, assistant deputy minister, strategic policy.

Welcome.

Colleagues, we have an hour. We'll try to stick to our time frame. We'll turn the floor over to the minister for her opening remarks and then, as per usual, we'll go straight into questions.

Minister, I'll turn the floor over to you.

11:05 a.m.

Compton—Stanstead Québec

Liberal

Marie-Claude Bibeau LiberalMinister of International Development and La Francophonie

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is my pleasure to join you today to discuss the Development Finance Institution, DFI.

As we all know, in 2015, the international community adopted a new set of global sustainable development goals, or SDGs, to continue to address poverty and inequality. It is always really important to keep in mind that the goal of our new feminist policy, as in the case of sustainable development goals, is to fight poverty.

Those new objectives are based on the idea that all parties and resources related to development must be mobilized. We know that official development assistance has helped generate significant gains over the past few decades. However, it is clear that public sector resources alone will not enable us to reach the sustainable development goals by 2030.

That is where the private sector comes in. It is widely recognized, including in the Addis Ababa Action Agenda, which was developed in 2015, that the private sector is a driver of economic growth. Economic growth also provides greater stability and security in developing countries. The private sector's involvement is key to achieving development results in order to end poverty and inequality.

This is where Canada's new Development Finance Institution can play a key role. G7 countries and many other OECD countries have had DFIs for a number of years to support businesses that want to invest in developing countries. They provide businesses with the funding needed to set up shop and develop commercial activities. That funding is not available from traditional financial service providers.

It has been shown that DFIs, in addition to supporting economic growth in developing countries, could successfully support our international development priorities. In Canada, the consultations we have held on international assistance have indicated that Canadians stakeholders were favourable to more opportunities being available in the country in terms of development finance.

Canada's new Feminist International Assistance Policy also reflects our commitment to working more closely with the private sector.

On May 5 of this year, I joined Prime Minister Trudeau to announce the establishment of Canada's own development finance institute, which will be headquartered in Montreal and operate as a subsidiary of Export Development Canada.

My officials are working closely with EDC to launch the DFl's operations by January 2018. With an initial capitalization of $300 million, the DFI aligns with our new feminist international assistance policy. It will be an important tool to reduce poverty, advance women's empowerment, and foster green, inclusive economic development.

This approach is unique and will distinguish us from other development finance institutions in the world. Its success will be measured by its ability to generate long-term development results while becoming financially self-sustaining over time.

The board of directors will have the experience and expertise needed to help the new DFI deliver on its mandate. The DFI will also be supported by an advisory council that possesses expertise in international development and finance. Moreover, day-to-day operations will be led by a managing director with development financing expertise.

It will draw on a full range of instruments, such as debt, equity, and guarantees. To achieve financial sustainability in a reasonable time frame, it will build a diversified portfolio that balances both risks and returns, to have the greatest impact in the field while ensuring its sustainability.

The DFI will also develop a decision-making framework guided by the government's clear direction to focus its work on high-impact sectors to maximize development opportunities. The DFl's framework will ensure that its impacts are real and measurable.

To do this, we are emphasizing the need to work with small and medium-sized enterprises to reach the poorest and most vulnerable in countries eligible for ODA.

The new institution will prioritize activities in areas such as action on climate change, clean energy, agrifood and infrastructure, including infrastructure related to water management and treatment. Financial services and businesses run by women and young people will also be a priority.

Finally, since the impact of investment on development depends on the success of our projects, the institute will consider the potential for long-term success of every initiative it will support. In some cases, Global Affairs Canada could provide complementary technical assistance to optimize the positive effects on development, especially when it comes to outcomes related to gender equality.

To accelerate its implementation and support business growth, the institute will take advantage of Canada's national networks, including the Canadian Trade Commissioner Service and Export Development Canada's networks.

The last element, but not the least, is that the institute will also adopt a corporate social responsibility framework that will reflect the best practices of other DFIs.

In closing, it's true that the DFI will be a powerful complement to our traditional development efforts, but ODA will continue to be critical to building inclusive and sustainable growth in developing countries. As minister, I want to use Canada's leadership and all other levers at my disposal to leverage more resources for development.

Thank you. Now I am open to questions.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bob Nault

Thank you very much, Minister. I'll go straight to questions.

Mr. Aboultaif, please.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to the minister for inviting me to UNGA for three days. Being there for her meetings was a good start for me in my new portfolio.

The initiative on DFI started under our previous Conservative government. We see now that the $300 million remains in place. My first question is, where is the $300 million going to come from?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marie-Claude Bibeau Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC

It is within EDC capitalization, so it doesn't have to come from the ODA envelope. It's within EDC already.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Okay.

You have goals and priorities. We know for sure that encouraging the private sector to partner on development projects across the world is a good idea. You've set your priorities already, based on certain criteria that you have set as your goal in order to participate in those projects.

How is the Canadian private sector going to be encouraged more when the finance minister is already suggesting some tax measures that are going to put extra levies on businesses and make it harder for our private sector to compete? It will be less competitive. How is the Canadian private sector going to compete and be encouraged when the tax proposed by the finance minister is going to be a roadblock?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marie-Claude Bibeau Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC

First, I don't agree with the context of your question, but I will focus on answering concerning development and the DFI.

Since we have taken the decision to build the DFI within EDC, it will be an opportunity for us to benefit from EDC's network in Canada and abroad. We will benefit not only from their financial products but also from their networks. They already have an important private sector network. It will be easier to reach out and to share business opportunities in developing countries through these business enterprises that are already doing business overseas.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

EDC is a for-profit body or business. Is DFI going to be profitable? Is it going to be for-profit too?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marie-Claude Bibeau Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC

Absolutely. All the DFIs are profitable in the end, but the idea is that it's not a private financing institution. Making a profit is not the ultimate objective.

The idea is a balance between financial sustainability and having the biggest impact in the field. They will have to develop a diversified portfolio and take reasonable risks, obviously, as it's not private. They have to take a certain level of risk, but they have the experience.

To give you an example, in 2000 the investment through DFIs globally was $10 billion. In 2014, it was $70 billion. That gives you an example of how this way of investing in developing countries to stimulate investment in sharing the risk is definitely a good channel. We can see that from our experience.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Speaking of risks, we have a private sector that is going to invest, and we have a DFI as a body that is going to monitor and open the door. Who's going to take the full risk? Will it be the private sector or the DFI?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marie-Claude Bibeau Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC

We will have with the DFI—once again, within the EDC—and also with our trade commissioners across the world the experience, expertise, and knowledge of what are the reasonable risks and who are the trusted partners in the field.

We obviously take a bit more risk than a fully private institution, but still, the idea is to be financially sustainable and even to capitalize more to be able to reinvest in development. We will find the right person to manage, support, and accompany to make sure that at the end of the day, with a diversified portfolio, it will be sustainable and we will be able to increase capitalization through the years.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

That $300 million sounds like a lot of money, but really, for going into development and taking this route in business, it's not a big amount. What is your strategy to stretch the $300 million to go for the longer term? Again, five years is a short term. What's your strategy on stretching that $300 million?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marie-Claude Bibeau Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC

Well, the $300 million is definitely a good start in order to be able to implement the structure and to get experience and see where our strengths and weaknesses are and how we can improve. Then we need to have the discussion on the lessons learned and find the best ways to improve or strengthen and even increase the capitalization through the years. It's a kind of start-up. We will adjust through the years.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bob Nault

Thank you, Mr. Aboultaif.

We'll go to Mr. Levitt, please.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Levitt Liberal York Centre, ON

First of all, good morning, Minister. It's good to have you here before our committee. This is obviously an issue that we looked at back in the spring, but we're certainly happy to have your expertise on the subject here today.

I want to start with a couple of more general questions. How will Canada's development finance institute distinguish itself from other DFIs? We've heard reports of other DFIs and analysis of the U.K. and the U.S., but how is the Canadian version going to distinguish itself, particularly in terms of the return on investment of the $300 million in initial capital?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marie-Claude Bibeau Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC

Our DFI is linked with feminist international assistance policy. We have given an orientation to the board of the EDC and the board of the DFI to come. We want the projects that we will support to have an impact on our areas of priority, which you can find within the policy.

Obviously, economic empowerment will be a significant element that we want to look at. There's the empowerment of youth as well in terms of businesses, creating jobs, and developing entrepreneurship with youth. These are also priorities.

In terms of sectors of activity, it's everything related to climate change. It could be agribusiness, green technologies, green energy, or water. These are sectors of activity that we want to focus on, because we think it's the right thing to do to foster the economy. As well, we have in Canada the expertise in these sectors, which we can share with developing countries. We want to bring Canadians to engaging with developing countries.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Levitt Liberal York Centre, ON

You mentioned Export Development Canada, EDC. What is the advantage of having the DFI as a subsidiary of EDC? Why not set up a separate independent body, as other jurisdictions have done?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marie-Claude Bibeau Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC

Our team investigated that in looking at different ways for how we could establish the DFI. The recommendation was to go through EDC.

First, they already have the overseas and international investment expertise. Their team is qualified. They already have all the financial products available. It's much easier for us than having to reinvent the wheel all over again.

Also, in terms of cost-effectiveness, I think it's also a good decision to not start over again and build a full complete support team when we already have experts available, both those from EDC and our trade commissioners in the different embassies.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Levitt Liberal York Centre, ON

I want to move now to a question on project life cycles. We know that development projects can take a fair amount of time before they can provide evidence of impact. How will Canada's DFI be able to demonstrate impacts in what really is a very few short years?

Do you have any particular ideas that are going to be used in the beginning as pilot projects, possibly, or shorter projects that may be able to prove the intent of the DFI in a relatively short period of time?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marie-Claude Bibeau Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC

Yes. The DFI team is working on developing a results framework. That is one thing. To have an impact and results in the short term, maybe we can also partner with other DFIs that have already started a discussion on different projects. This is a possibility in order to be able to start quickly and, in the beginning, to manage and share the risks with other organizations. We are looking at different ways to start quickly and efficiently.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Levitt Liberal York Centre, ON

While I'm certainly in favour of a Canadian DFI, I'm wondering about the impact we can have with a $300-million investment. As my colleague across the way said, it's not a lot of money when we're talking about these kinds of projects.

How does that amount compare to those of other DFIs that have been out there and have been established for a while? How will that impact the approach that we're taking?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Marie-Claude Bibeau Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC

I'll give you examples. The Swedish have $400 million U.S. and the Swiss $600 million.

We're starting. I'm very open, and I hope this will be a success. I'm confident that it will be a success. We could consider recapitalization when the time comes. I'm also hopeful that later, in a few years, the DFI itself will generate revenues and increase its capacity to reinvest in other new projects.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bob Nault

Thank you, Mr. Levitt.

Mr. Aubin, go ahead.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Ms. Bibeau. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.

Canada is following an established path as it implements its institution, so I hope we will be able to learn from the experiences of those who came before us.

I would like to mention an article published in the British newspaper The Guardian, which reports on the findings of a study sounding the alarm. According to the article, in 2013, more than two-thirds of investments made by the British Development Finance Institution transited through tax havens. That study was carried out by the European network.

I don't want to get into the details of all the existing examples. However, I would like to know what specific measures you plan to implement to ensure that the Canadian DFI will not fund any businesses that use fiscal planning and use tax havens in their planning.