Foreign Affairs Committee on Jan. 28th, 2021

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Let me correct my figures, sir. This is March 2019. The statement of the secretary general of the OAS talked about the international community's support of $200 million, compared with the Syrian crisis, with more than $30 billion. That is a remarkable difference in the amount of support there.

One of my colleagues asked about the coronavirus crisis. Venezuela cannot participate in the COVAX plan because they don't have the money to pay. Is there a possibility of Canada supporting access to some of the money that is being currently held in banks, foreign currency, to be used to purchase vaccines? Is that something Canada would support?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Give a very quick answer, please, Mr. Grant.

[Michael Grant]

Sure.

I think we're definitely open to finding innovative solutions to ensure that everyone gets the vaccine, including those in Venezuela and those Venezuelan migrants. We've been a strong supporter of the Pan American Health Organization, and there may be some way of using them as well.

Quickly on the figure, as of right now, it's still dramatically low, but I understand it to be $2.7 billion that has been committed towards Venezuela. It is still low, and it needs to increase dramatically, but maybe it's a little more precise as to where we are at the current time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Grant, thank you very much.

We have Mr. Chong, please, for five minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I'm going to pass the floor to Mr. Diotte, if he wants to follow up with his questions on the humanitarian crisis. Mr. Harris and Mr. Bergeron have explored the whole issue of the status of the interim president.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Perfect. Thank you.

[Kerry Diotte, Conservative, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Sure, I'll be glad to take over.

Getting to the COVID crisis, as you've explained, they're not in any kind of situation where.... Because there's such a breakdown in society, there's very little that can be done. Can you describe at least the numbers we're being given? Do we have any idea how serious that part of the crisis is in Venezuela?

[Michael Grant]

It's a really good question. Unfortunately, I don't think I or many people can give any precision in terms of the exact impact, but the numbers that they put out are dramatically low. I think they've stated that somewhere north of a thousand people have passed away, which is a tragedy unto itself, but I think most people in the international health community would see that as much higher.

In terms of moving forward, looking at mechanisms like PAHO and others is one. The Maduro regime is engaging on this as well. I think it's important to recognize that. They have a commitment for many millions of doses from Russia, of the Russian vaccine. I think we all hope that is successful. I think it is going to fall short of what's needed, and, as with many other issues, the international community is going to need to step up. We will definitely look at the options we have to do so.

[Kerry Diotte, Conservative, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

We talked about some of the people fleeing Venezuela and so forth, but obviously there are probably Canadian citizens there. Do we have any kind of idea how many Canadians are currently in Venezuela? I understand that basically there are no diplomats left in the country, or am I wrong in that?

[Michael Grant]

You are correct. We did have to close our embassy. We do have some local staff housed in the British embassy, mainly on consular issues.

I can't say how many Canadian citizens reside in Venezuela. They would most likely be almost exclusively dual citizens, and as you know we don't keep such statistics. We do rely on Canadians registering in our ROCA system of residents abroad. Those numbers are virtually zero.

There were some Canadians who were in Venezuela this time last year and needed to be evacuated. As far as we know, all who wanted to depart have departed, but in terms of Canadians still residing we would not have those numbers.

[Kerry Diotte, Conservative, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Getting back to sanctions and so forth, could you explain exactly what we've done and what our sanctions entail? Is there a plan by Canada to expand sanctions, or is there even talk of it? Could you touch on that again?

[Michael Grant]

Our sanctions target individuals. They put restrictions on those individuals' ability to do business in Canada, to do banking in Canada and to travel to Canada. In terms of going forward, this is something we are constantly looking at.

The three most active entities on sanctions are ourselves, the United States and the European Union. Now that the U.K. is out of the European Union, I put them in that category as well. We have very close communication, and whenever additional sanctions come from one of them we look closely to see the reasoning and to determine whether we need to take action. At the same time, we are constantly monitoring the situation in Venezuela and, as I mentioned, reports such as that of the UN fact-finding mission on the human rights situation. That's one great example where we will look at it and determine if we need to add more.

It's not something we talk about publicly, in terms of who we are looking at, but I can tell you that this is ongoing and we'll be looking at whether we increase the number of sanctions in the weeks and months to come.

[Kerry Diotte, Conservative, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Their oil industry has been quite devastated, but is there any oil coming from Venezuela to Canada?

[Michael Grant]

No, there is not. About a year ago, we looked into this and determined that the last shipment of oil to Canada—we think it was in 2014 or 2015—was maybe one thousand or two thousand barrels of oil; it wasn't much. Since then, we have no record of any oil coming from Venezuela.

[Kerry Diotte, Conservative, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Diotte.

Thank you, Mr. Grant.

Our final round of questions goes to Mr. Fonseca for five minutes, please.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Grant, for the questions you've answered. I believe I'll be the last questioner. As a wrap-up, I also want to give you the opportunity to put on the table anything we may have missed, any important questions that need to be answered. I'd like you to be able to inform the committee on them.

Mr. Grant, during a committee meeting on February 27, 2019, you stated, “We have some experience with local NGOs, but the necessary conditions aren't in place to facilitate the use of this funding.” That's a quote from you in reference to the $55 million, at the time, which we've spoken about. We've put in another $18 million for basic needs for the most vulnerable people in the area through those neighbouring countries.

With that commitment of support to Venezuela, have there been any improvements to infrastructure so they are able to support the funding we are sending? Can you explain that?

[Michael Grant]

That's a very good question.

First, our total assistance to date is $87 million. That's where we're at right now.

In terms of support inside Venezuela, this is something that has been very difficult. We have been able to work with some local NGOs, NGOs that advocate for human rights, as well as look at health services and things like that. Unlike other places, we're just very careful about stating publicly who they are. There is a real risk that they will be targeted, so we're very careful about that. In the humanitarian space, we have also worked with others, some of the more well-known international humanitarian organizations, and even they have requested that we not speak publicly about the work they're doing, which allows them to carry on their work.

I mentioned earlier that there had been an agreement between the Maduro regime, the interim government of Juan Guaidó and the United Nations for the delivery of humanitarian assistance. It was also with the Pan American Health Organization. There has been some limited success there. There has been the ability to get some supplies in, but as of late, as of the last few weeks, the regime has put up some additional roadblocks.

We hope it continues, because it's badly needed. We are also looking at options to see whether there is a way for Canada to contribute to that. You can understand that it's a bit of a risky business. Working with some of the UN agencies and well-known humanitarian organizations gives us some comfort, but it is very difficult to operate in that environment. At the same time, the needs outside, with the 5.4 million Venezuelans, are extremely acute, and I think that is why the majority of our funding has gone to support their situation.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Grant, in February of last year, you spoke on a podcast, Global Americans, where you admitted shortcomings from the Lima Group and thought it might have been naive in some areas of optimism. It's almost one year later. Where have we made improvements in making this group more effective in its negotiation, and how? I guess that's the question.

[Michael Grant]

I think many actors in the international community perhaps were a bit naive. If we go back to 2019, there was a tremendous amount of optimism and momentum behind the interim presidency of Juan Guaidó. Every day there was another country around the world saying they recognize him as the legitimate leader. There was tremendous outpouring of support on the street for him. To be honest, if we'd had this hearing at that time, I would have told you that we believe change is imminent. It wasn't; we were wrong, and I think we're unfortunately in good company in being wrong.

You know, this is a very difficult situation. It sounds a bit rhetorical and perhaps naive, but I think Canada does believe in a negotiated solution to this, as difficult as it may be. The only way we're going to get out of this crisis is for Venezuelans themselves to agree on a way forward.

The alternatives are worse. Over the past few years, there have been occasionally some actors who would hint at military intervention and the like. Canada opposed that, and we continue to oppose it. While the situation is bad, very bad, it could get worse through military intervention. That is why we need a peaceful, negotiated solution to get back to democracy in Venezuela.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Grant and Mr. Fonseca.

Colleagues, that takes us to the end of our scheduled briefing with Global Affairs colleagues on Venezuela. I would like to thank them on our collective behalf.

Mr. Grant, Mr. Cohen and Mr. Beauséjour, we thank you very much for your testimony, and above all, for your work.

With that, we will suspend, to reconvene in a few moments in camera for some committee business. Thank you, everybody.

[Proceedings continue in camera]