Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Colleagues, welcome to meeting number 2 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Pursuant to the order of reference of today, October 22, 2020, the committee will proceed to a briefing on the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh.

Today's meeting is being held in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of September 23, 2020. Proceedings will be posted on the House of Commons website. For your information, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entire committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline briefly a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either the floor, English or French.

Members attending in person must conduct themselves as they would normally if all committee members were meeting in person in a committee room and keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for wearing masks, as well as health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. The microphones of those in the room will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer.

When you have 30 seconds remaining in your questioning time, I will signal you by holding up a yellow sheet of paper.

When you're not speaking, your microphone should be on mute.

Now I would like to welcome our witnesses from Global Affairs Canada.

We have with us David Sproule, senior Arctic official and director general of Arctic, Eurasian and European affairs, as well as Shanili Anand, acting director general of export controls.

With that, I would like to turn the floor over—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, seeing that we started 51 minutes late, could you tell us for our own benefit when the meeting will adjourn?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

It will be at 5:45, Mr. Chong, if that's agreeable. Unless somebody has strict views to the contrary, I would propose that we go until 5:45 p.m..

Mr. Sproule, we will turn the floor over to you now for your remarks, for up to 15 minutes. The floor is yours.

[David Sproule, Senior Arctic Official and Director General, Arctic, Eurasian and European Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Chairman.

I will provide a short overview of the situation in the Nagorno-Karabakh.

I am accompanied by my colleague, Shalini Anand. She will answer any questions that may come up with regard to export permits for the region.

Nagorno-Karabakh is a historical flashpoint between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Nagorno-Karabakh was an autonomous region within Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic. The ethnic Armenian Karabakhis declared independence in 1991, triggering a three-year war that pitted Azerbaijan against Karabakh separatists and Armenia, until a ceasefire was reached in May 1994. The war and the expulsion of Azerbaijanis from Armenia and seven adjacent territories occupied by Armenia resulted in over one million refugees and internally displaced persons. Today Nagorno-Karabakh and the seven adjacent territories account for almost 14% of Azerbaijani territory. They remain occupied by Armenian and separatists forces.

Instability in this region carries high risks of spillover that could involve Turkey, Russia and Iran. The OSCE Minsk Group, co-chaired by France, Russia and the United States, mediates the conflict, but progress has been minimal. Despite outbreaks of violence over the years, this has been largely a frozen conflict.

The new outbreak of violence since September 27 appears to be the worst since the 1990s. Both Azerbaijan and Armenia accuse the other of causing the outbreak. The fighting has included the use of armour, air power and artillery. Both sides have accused each other of recruiting foreign fighters, but these allegations remain difficult to verify.

Fighting has continued both along and beyond the line of contact. Aggressive political rhetoric about the hostilities have come from both sides. The bombardment of cities has become a major characteristic of the conflict. The capital of Nagorno-Karabakh has been regularly bombed, while Armenia has launched missile attacks on major Azerbaijani cities. Civilian casualties continue to rise. All claims by either side remain extremely difficult to verify. Two Russian-brokered ceasefires between Armenia and Azerbaijan have failed to take hold.

Armenia and Azerbaijan maintain mutually exclusive negotiating positions around the modalities for determining the final status of Nagorno-Karabakh, making reaching a consensus very difficult. The return of seven occupied territories surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh is particularly contentious. Armenia views the security of the corridor connecting the region to Armenia through two Armenian-controlled districts as vital to their broader security of Nagorno-Karabakh. Azerbaijan considers the return of occupied territories and the right of return for internally displaced persons as condition for the beginning of normalization of relations.

Azerbaijan has been facing domestic pressure to reach a peace settlement that would involve the return of lost territory. Smaller clashes earlier in July produced a groundswell of popular support for the war. While Armenia's 2018 Velvet Revolution brought about expectations of a reset in the peace process, this has not occurred. It has fuelled fears in Azerbaijan that no peace can be achieved through negotiation. Armenia has never recognized Nagorno-Karabakh, but Armenian Prime Minister Pashinyan has said that this is now a possibility.

Turkey is playing a strong role in support of Azerbaijan, which they consider a brethren nation. Such support is long standing, with Turkey having closed its border with Armenia due to the conflict in 1993. Turkey and Azerbaijan conducted large joint military exercises in July 2020. However, Turkey has said it is not involved militarily in the current conflict and denied allegations that Turkish F-16s shot down an Armenian fighter jet.

Despite its long-standing substantial political, economic and military support for Armenia, Russia has made public statements calling on both sides to reduce tension. Russia is actively mediating and now has brokered two ceasefires. On October 21, Russia hosted both foreign ministers for bilateral talks.

Russia is the largest supplier of military equipment to both Armenia and Azerbaijan and has around [Technical difficulty—Editor]

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I can't hear anything.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

We will just ask IT people to see if they can restore it.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I lost it after “Russia hosted both foreign ministers for bilateral talks” and the rest is missing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

It's the same here.

IT, let's turn it over to you to see if it can be restored.

I'm advised that IT is in contact with Mr. Sproule and is attempting to restore the connection.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Erica Pereira]

Mr. Chair, could you please confirm that we're suspended?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

We are. Do we need a formal motion? My understanding is that we're suspended until the connection has been restored or until we're advised otherwise. If the connection cannot be restored, then we will have to adjourn and potentially reschedule for another opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

I can hear you, Mr. Sproule. Let's just check with interpretation that they have the same feed that they had previously. Okay, I'm getting a thumbs-up, Mr. Sproule, we'll turn it back over to you for your continued testimony.

[David Sproule]

Thank you.

Despite its long-standing substantial political, economic and military support to Armenia, Russia's public statements call on both sides to reduce tensions. Russia is actively mediating and has now brokered two ceasefires, neither of which has held. On October 21, Russia hosted both foreign ministers for further bilateral talks.

Russia is the largest supplier of military equipment to both Armenia and Azerbaijan, and has around 3,000 troops stationed at a base near Yerevan in Armenia. The Collective Security Treaty Organisation, led by Russia, and of which Armenia is a member, could be used to justify Russia's entry into the conflict. However, Russia has stated that the CSTO provisions only apply to Armenia, not to Nagorno-Karabakh.

Canada's position on the Nagorno-Karabakh situation is long-standing and emphasizes the principles of non-use of force, territorial integrity and self-determination. While Canada recognizes Azerbaijan's territorial integrity, we do not prejudge the form of a future settlement.

Canada fully supports the efforts of the OSCE Minsk Group. Minister Champagne and U.K. Foreign Minister Raab issued joint statements, on September 29 and October 5, condemning the violence and calling for a peaceful negotiated resolution through the framework provided by the OSCE's Minsk process.

In 2019, Turkey was Canada's third-largest non-U.S. export destination for military goods and technology, receiving approximately $151.4 million in Canadian military exports, accounting for approximately 4.03% of the total value of non-U.S. military exports. In the case of Armenia, under the same period, export of military goods and technology from Canada were minimal, totalling only $1,453.20. As for Azerbaijan, we need to go back to 2017 to see the latest Canadian export of military goods and technology, for a value of $50,016.

On October 5, 2020, Minister Champagne released a statement announcing the suspension of export permits to Turkey relevant to Nagorno-Karabakh and the conflict. This decision followed various allegations of the possible export to Azerbaijan of Turkish drones with Canadian components, and reports that these drones may have been used in combat operations. Canadian officials are currently investigating these allegations. The suspension will allow time to further assess the situation. Global Affairs Canada has informed the Canadian companies whose permits have been suspended.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sproule. That leaves us a bit more time for questioning than we may have anticipated.

Let's go to our first round of questions now.

I will pass the floor to Mr. Chong for six minutes, please.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for Madam Anand in particular and focus on the export of Canadian-made military equipment to Turkey.

In October last year, the government banned all military exports to Turkey in conjunction with some NATO allies, in light of what it said were Turkey's “military actions” in northeastern Syria. Does the reference to those military actions involve drones?

[Shalini Anand, Acting Director General, Export Controls, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Just as a small point of clarification, actually, on October 11, 2019, Canada put into place a suspension on the issuance of all new exports.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

That's right, and I'm wondering whether the reason for that suspension included drones being used inappropriately by Turkey.

[Shalini Anand]

The reason for the suspension at the time was Turkey's incursion into northeastern Syria—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Northeastern Syria—

[Shalini Anand]

That's correct.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

—I understand that, but did that incursion involve the use of drones at the time?

[Shalini Anand]

I'm sorry, I'm not aware if that specific incursion and the reason behind—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I have a limited amount of time, so I just want to get through some questions.

[Shalini Anand]

I understand.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Last April, the government created an exemption for category 2 military exports. Why is that?

[Shalini Anand]

On April 16, we lifted the full suspension from the issuance of all new permits.