Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2020

[Shalini Anand]

Understood. We'll endeavour to come back.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Chong, I think that's your time. Thank you very much.

Next on the speaking list I have Dr. Fry.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As I understand it, any arms sales have to fall under the treaty negotiated with the NATO members. I don't think Canada is acting on its own; Canada is complying, hopefully, with the treaty agreements on arms sales. I think that's fair. I understand you cannot tell us some things because they are under security lockdown. We can't hear some things in a public meeting that concern security issues.

I want to move on and ask Mr. Sproule some questions.

Yesterday, on Wednesday, there was a European message that the Armenian Prime Minister has declared that Armenia is beyond the ability to negotiate a settlement of the conflict. In other words, he drew a line in the sand and is asking for volunteers to join an Armenian militia. I want to know how true that is.

Secondly, you spoke very well of the Turkey-Azerbaijan friendship. It is my understanding that there are bilateral agreements specifically between Russia and Armenia. Today, how does that affect what is going on with Russia being the honest broker? I know there are three co-chairs for the Minsk Group. One is Russia, one is France and one is the United States.

The question for me, then, is this: In your best estimation, given what the Armenian Prime Minister said on Wednesday and given that he has asked people to join the militia, do you really believe that the Minsk process will take place? Do you really believe there is an opportunity to start peace talks? Do you believe there is good faith on the part of Russia, Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan? Well, there is no good faith with two of them. Is there good faith on the part of these two larger countries—Turkey and Russia?

[David Sproule]

There are a number of questions in that. Let me try to answer those in turn.

Insofar as the security agreement between Russia and Armenia is concerned, it has come up for discussion. There has been consideration of whether or not there is an obligation on Russia's part vis-à-vis Armenia. I think the determination on the Russian side has been that it applies to incursions on Armenian soil, but not necessarily on the soil of Nagorno-Karabakh. That certainly assists Russia in playing a mediating role in this conflict.

As for the question about whether there is any reasonable chance for the OSCE Minsk process to work, there was some progress last year. There was an agreement in March. There was a meeting of the chairs of the group. Following from that, at the foreign ministers level, there was an agreement in June that there should be a return of prisoners as a result of the fighting that had gone on.

The OSCE group has met on many occasions over the years. It hasn't effectively brought a peace settlement in terms of things. It is our strong view that it is the best process to address the issue and should be utilized.

The difficulty—

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Sproule,.

I agree that it is the best process. I think that most OSCE members believe that it is the best process. The point is, and the question that I asked, was about the Armenian Prime Minister's putting up his flag two days ago, saying that there is no reasonable way that they are going back to the table and then asking the people of his country to join the militia.

That may be a spoiler there. I'm getting this through the OSCE back door, but I think there may be a feeling that Russia is trying to build this—even though it says it isn't—into a faceoff with Turkey and, by extension, with NATO. There is a feeling that there is a bit of trouble brewing there that is underscoring the problem, and this lets Russia, and possibly Turkey, not act in good faith at all, even though they say they are.

[David Sproule]

Well, up until this time, Russia has acted in a very positive manner in trying to bring the two sides together. It has worked out ceasefires on two different occasions, though unfortunately those failed. It has spoken to the foreign ministers of both countries, as well as their heads of government, so it is actively working on it.

Russia, of course, has a very activist foreign policy, and so has Turkey, and they have been able to sort out some of their difficulties—most of their difficulties—in dialogues between their heads of government, Mr. Erdogan and Mr. Putin. An example of that has been some of the tensions that arose when both countries' forces were present in Idlib in northeast Syria some months back.

We are supportive of any ongoing efforts to undertake mediation with a view to a possible settlement of the problem, but we would also strongly support the established mechanism that has been in place for some time and is readily available to both sides.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sproule.

Mr. Bergeron, you have six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Sproule, in your presentation, you indicated that it was difficult to verify the allegations regarding the presence of Syrian mercenaries. However, French President Emmanuel Macron has directly accused Turkey of allowing Syrian jihadists to cross into Nagorno-Karabakh to fight Armenia. The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights has also alluded to these Syrian mercenaries, who are reportedly being paid by Turkey. It even documents their movements and their death toll.

If the President of France and the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights have made such a strong statement, how can we claim today that the allegations remain difficult to verify?

Is there no relationship between the Canadian and French intelligence agencies that allows for these verifications to be made?

[David Sproule]

Well sir, I can't speak for France and their information or where it comes from. I'm not aware....

What we would like to see is more of an opportunity to monitor the situation on the ground. Unfortunately, due to the conflict, as well as the COVID situation, all OSCE monitors who are normally there to look into these kinds of allegations are not present, and therefore it's very difficult to verify allegations such as that.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Is there no relationship between the French and Canadian intelligence agencies that would confirm the information that led the French president to make such a statement?

[David Sproule]

The nature and source of the information that France has received and their willingness or ability to share information such as that.... I'm not aware of what has been done or what could be done in that regard.

As I said, for this conflict, we have relied heavily on the mechanism that's been in place: independent monitoring of the situation on the part of the OSCE.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I would just like to point out that France is co-chairing the Minsk Group, which is tasked with trying to find a solution to this conflict. Speaking of the conflict, wouldn't you say that this disaster was entirely predictable?

I feel that at least two factors point in that direction. First, Azerbaijan has always opposed international monitoring of the border. Second, at the end of June this year, when UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, on Malaysia's initiative, called for a kind of global ceasefire during the health crisis, 170 states at the United Nations agreed to the request. The list of 170 states includes Armenia, but not Azerbaijan. It's as if they don't want to tie their hands by committing to take no military action. A few weeks later, first in July and August, and then in September, conflicts did indeed happen in the region.

Don't you think it was a disaster that was waiting to happen, based on the information I just provided?

[David Sproule]

Canada has actively encouraged both sides to step back from the conflict and to implement ceasefires. So far it has not been successful.

In terms of the question you asked about verification of the allegations of foreign fighters, I'm not aware of the other two chairs of the Minsk Group having confirmed or commented on the presence of foreign fighters. To my knowledge, it has been France alone.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

As we mentioned earlier, Canada has suspended the export of sensors that Turkey in particular uses in its drones.

Turkey's foreign minister has criticized Canada for having a double standard, so to speak, because it continues to export tanks to Saudi Arabia, for example, which the UN has directly accused of grievous human rights violations, particularly in Yemen.

Why ban the export of weapons to Turkey and continue to export them to Saudi Arabia?

[David Sproule]

Are you directing the question at me or my colleague?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I guess I am asking whoever can answer the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Bergeron, you're running out of time.

Maybe there's a chance to circle back in the next round.

The last speaker in this round is Mr. Harris.

You have six minutes, sir. The floor is yours.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Firstly, to the witness regarding the export of military goods, are there conditions related to third party brokerage contained in the export permits granting the export of goods to Turkey, as required by the Arms Trade Treaty?

[Shalini Anand]

Mr. Chair, I'm not entirely sure I understand the question, but I will attempt to answer what I understand.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

If I may clarify, the Arms Trade Treaty talks about brokerage, end-user obligations and trade to third parties. Do the export permits granted to Turkey last April include provisions with respect to third party trade?

[Shalini Anand]

Because of commercial confidentiality, I can't speak about individual export permits that have or have not been granted. I can say that generally any export permit applications that we receive are reviewed against Arms Trade Treaty criteria—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Tell me specifically whether the provisions that apply to Turkey affect the end-user, wherever the goods go. Are those included in that? Are there restrictions on that, in other words? Yes or no?

[Shalini Anand]

I'm sorry. I will just clarify that brokering permits are a separate category of permit, but they are also subject—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Were any of those granted to Turkey as well?