Foreign Affairs Committee on March 25th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Dr. Fry, and thank you to the witnesses.

Mr. Bergeron, the floor is now yours for six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today.

Am I right in saying that, when it comes to the Rohingya issue, the central element of the problematic situation is the military?

It doesn't matter whether it's under a civilian government or under the military junta, the importance of the army in this country means that the lives and safety of the Rohingya are at risk. Isn't that right?

[Paul Thoppil]

Mr. Chair, that would be correct.

Peter, would you like to elaborate?

[Peter Lundy]

Yes. Thank you, Paul.

The central element is the military. We need to take into account the fact that, despite being on the path to democracy, there was always a structured democracy so that the military would retain control. In the current constitution, a certain percentage of the seats in parliament were retained by the military. We know that they retained direct control of all the main ministries of the government in terms of security and internal affairs. There was always a tension between the civilian component and the military component.

The security operations that led to the atrocities against the Rohingya people in 2017-18 were clearly the result of military action and direction. Security operations in Rakhine State and other regions of the country escalated quickly to crimes against humanity, which were acknowledged by our Parliament.

Yes, there was a tension previously between the civilian structure and the military.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

An article in Le Devoir suggests that OpenText has sold software and tools to Myanmar authorities, including tools to retrieve, process, classify and decrypt data from computers and smartphones.

What assurances do we have that these tools provided by a Canadian company aren't currently being used by military authorities to exercise some form of repression on the population?

[Paul Thoppil]

Jamie, would you like to respond to that?

[James Christoff, Executive Director, Southeast Asia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

We have a robust process of export controls, and to the extent products are sold to entities in Myanmar, if export controls are not required they can move through legitimate means of commerce. I'm not sure how this particular product is being used at the moment. I'm happy to come back with confirmation, but there is a process in place that mitigates against the sale of products that should not be going to Myanmar under the rules and regulations we have in place.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Chair, will these little interruptions have an impact on my time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Not at all.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Okay.

On February 18, the government amended the Special Economic Measures (Burma) Regulations to prohibit transactions involving related financial goods and services with a number of designated persons. However, as of March 12, Le Devoir reported that a Canadian company had signed a $2 million contract with General Mya Tun Oo, Myanmar's minister of defence. The article mentions that Global Affairs Canada was aware of this transaction.

Do the special economic measures for Myanmar apply to these designated individuals or not? Clearly, Canadian companies continue to make significant deals with members of the Myanmar military junta.

[Paul Thoppil]

Cory, would you address that question, please.

[Cory Anderson]

Certainly.

Yes, we are aware of the allegations against the PR company in Montreal, Dickens & Madson. They are well known to the Government of Canada for other activities in the past. We are also aware of the allegations that they may have entered into a contract with the regime-appointed defence minister.

Global Affairs Canada is not an investigative or enforcement agency; that is the responsibility of the RCMP. We remain in very close contact with the RCMP on a number of different issues and are under the impression they are aware of this as well. I would like you to direct those types of questions to the RCMP.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you for your candid response, but I have to say that it worries me a bit.

Once regulations are in place, such as regulations on importing equipment that may have been manufactured by Uyghurs in a forced labour context in China, there seems to be a lack of capacity to implement regulations and enforce them. This means that companies are continuing to enter into agreements with members of the military junta.

Either you put regulations in place and make sure the necessary steps are taken to enforce them, or you readily admit that it's just wishful thinking. What do you think?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

May we have a brief answer on this one, please.

[Paul Thoppil]

Go ahead, Cory.

[Cory Anderson]

Contravening Canadian sanctions is a criminal offence. We work closely with enforcement agencies when information or allegations come to light, and then it is the responsibility of those enforcement agencies to investigate.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you.

Last in this round we have Mr. Harris for six minutes, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for the presentation.

I think we all know that the military in Myanmar can be particularly brutal. Back in 1988 in their demonstration for democracy, more than 1,000 demonstrators were killed by military action. Despite that history, we see quite a large number of demonstrations in reaction to what's happened with the coup that took place on February 1.

In the aftermath of the coup, large demonstrations were going on. The successful parliamentarians, who were not allowed to be sworn in, got together and appointed what would be called a cabinet—I think they call it something else, the committee for representing the union of parliament—and they have formed what might be considered some sort of alternative government, although in hiding.

I was told by someone very knowledgeable that the demonstrations were aimed at urging public servants not to go to work in some sort of withdrawal of service in the hopes of being able to prevent the military from governing. There was some hope that might be successful.

Can you tell us anything about that side of things? Is that continuing? Does that have any prospect of growth, or is this a matter of the military government being successful in suppressing the demonstrations to date?

[Paul Thoppil]

The department's assessment is that the window for achieving an early solution that restores the democratic government and facilitates dialogue between the military and the former civilian government has continued to narrow since the outset of the coup. All international partners and interlocutors that we have spoken to share this assessment. It is likely that civil unrest will only increase. The Tatmadaw is continuing to use force, including lethal force against peaceful protesters, in a systemic pattern across the country. I have already noted how many civilians have been killed by the security forces and the numbers that have already been detained.

The situation on the ground remains highly volatile and it's difficult to predict what the Tatmadaw's next actions will be. The Tatmadaw has not conceded any ground and is expanding efforts to consolidate power and has not demonstrated a willingness to engage in peaceful dialogue. We are concerned that the military seizure of power will lead to a further deterioration of the living conditions of the people.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Historically, one of the strengths of the Tatmadaw internally, including the control of the constitution, has been their economic activity. They have private sources of income. They control a number of huge companies within Myanmar. They also have international support and investors throughout the world, including under the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board, we are told.

Is that a concern of the Government of Canada? Is there any effort being made to ensure that we do not contribute to the financial success and assets of the Myanmar military through support from Canada's pension funds—not only the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board but other huge investment boards in Canada—as part of that?

Is that a part of the sanctions that Canada is intending to exercise against the Myanmar government or military?

[Paul Thoppil]

Mr. Chair, in Canada, we are forward-leaning relative to others who are like-minded with regard to the sanctions against military-linked entities and conglomerates. The United States and the EU have recently come up with sanctions against the main military-linked conglomerates, like those we imposed some years ago.

We are in the midst, as part of our comprehensive measures beyond sanctions, of developing an advisory body to Canadian business in order to deal with the very questions that have been raised.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Does that mean there are some efforts at hand to deal with the Canadian funds being invested in the kinds of businesses that are helping to strengthen the military in Myanmar on an ongoing basis?

Is Canada going to do anything about Canadian investment funds that are investing in that? The Canada Pension Plan Investment Board, the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec and the British Columbia Investment Management Corporation have been identified as multinational companies partnering with the Myanmar military or Tatmadaw. The UN Human Rights Council identified them in a 2019 report. It seems to me that Canada ought to be doing something about that, if we do not wish to support the kind of activity that's gone on in Myanmar in the past and that is going on in the present.

Do you have anything to say about that?

[Paul Thoppil]

Mr. Chair, we are engaged in dialogue with Canadian businesses that have links to Myanmar. This is why we are proceeding with a proposed business advisory body to provide guidance.

Through our dialogue we are advising Canadian companies making them aware of the implications of the coup and the potential legal and reputational risks they would face doing business with any affiliates of the Tatmadaw.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you.