Foreign Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2021

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

I would like to refer all of you to slide number 44 in the presentation. It has an exact quote from the Bucharest 2008 decision on Ukraine and on Georgia. The direct quote from the summit decision says that the membership action plan is “the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership”. The summit actually asked the foreign ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting. The foreign ministers were meant to decide on the membership action plan applications for Ukraine and Georgia.

Thirteen years later, we still have not seen any progress on that, and I can tell you that probably if we had seen that swift action in 2008 we would not have seen the Russian aggression into Georgia and into Ukraine. That can be an argument for those who say that we probably should not provoke Russia with any decisions we make—it actually works the other way around.

This time, we want to see a very good and genuine conversation about future co-operation between Ukraine and NATO, and I think we should recognize that Canada is in a very special position for that specific conversation.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Ambassador.

Ambassador, what are the implications of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline for our security, for the security of our allies and for Ukraine's security? What role should Canada play on this issue?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

When we talk about oil and gas and Russia, we know it's never just about oil and gas. It's a security issue and it's a geopolitical issue. That's the way President Putin and the Kremlin see that. Nord Stream 2 is the Russian way to make its influence in Europe concrete and to seal it for decades to come.

To make a long story short, if Canada is serious about the security situation in Europe and if Canada is serious about the future of the global energy market, Canada should pay very precise attention to the future of Nord Stream 2. We believe that this project should be stopped and can be stopped.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Ambassador.

I wanted to follow up on something Mr. Fonseca was asking about in his questions, and I only have about a minute left. He spoke to the fact that Canada has imposed a range of sanctions on a number of individuals who have been involved in the invasion of eastern Ukraine and the annexation of Crimea.

You spoke to the fact that sanctions are necessary. You mentioned Magnitsky. You mentioned SWIFT. You talked about Russia's sovereign debt. For the members of the committee who may not be familiar with it, could you talk about what SWIFT is and what you mean when you refer to that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Give just a brief answer, Mr. Ambassador, please.

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

We just feel that the Russian economy, the Russian oligarchs and Putin's closest allies depend heavily on their financial assets and on their access to the western financial system. That tells us we should target that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to continue the conversation that the ambassador and I were having earlier.

We clearly understand Ukraine's motivations with respect to the Crimean Platform. We also understand Ukraine's motivation to see Canada, the United Kingdom and the United States join France, Russia, Germany and Ukraine in the peace negotiations for the future. You have eloquently described why Canada would have a place in such a context.

However, the question remains: do you think Russia would be comfortable with the United States, the United Kingdom and Canada joining this group of countries looking for a way forward?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

We are not going to have an answer to that until we try. I think the situation makes us creative and inventive, and we need to try different options.

When it comes to Canada, I can tell you that just last year Ukraine adopted its new national security strategy, and Canada was identified as one of the five countries of strategic importance for Ukraine, along with the U.S., the U.K., France and Germany. That reflects what we in our part of the world think and feel about Canada.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

It is certainly a reflection of what you think, but I doubt that it can be a reflection of what the Russians think.

I would also like to talk to you about the document you submitted to us, which includes various images of the Russian military build‑up and the deployment of ships from the Caspian Flotilla. After those images, you ask, “Is it over?”.

How would you answer that question?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Are you asking if this escalation is over?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

It's the question you yourself asked in your document. After the pages on the deployment of Russian troops, you ask “Is it over?”. So let me invite you to provide us with an answer.

In your opinion, is it over?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Give just a brief answer, Ambassador, please.

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Not at all. Actually, just recently, I saw this CBC story from the city of Voronezh, where the CBC correspondent had a chance to see the Russian deployment that is stationed right next to Voronezh in very close proximity to the Ukrainian border. The short answer is, no, it's far from over, and the Russians are still exploring their options for what to do with these deployments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Mr. Harris, you're next. You have two and a half minutes, please. The floor is yours.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to further explore the NATO question that has arisen. Part of the accession to NATO, of course, is the membership action plan that was mentioned but hasn't happened yet, but it also—NATO's being a political and economic alliance—looks at questions of economic and political reform as part of this process. I note that it was mentioned by Secretary of State Blinken on a recent visit to Ukraine.

Can you tell us what progress has been made in terms of economic and political reforms since 2014, when part of this process started?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Ukraine is going through this very difficult process of modernizing the country, and Canada is a major part of that. Actually, your deep involvement in the Ukrainian reforms is part of the reason we feel that the Canadian voice should be very strong and vocal in the discussions about the future of Ukraine and NATO, because you know so well what is happening in Ukraine because of your heavy involvement in our national police reforms, in the decentralization reforms and in the anti-corruption reforms. We see it all as interconnected parts of the same decision.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Would you give us some examples of the results that have been achieved by these reforms that have been implemented?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Absolutely. If you look at the national police, which has a very high level of trust, it's strikingly different from what it used to be, when the police were seen as a threat by citizens.

Then we see this world-class public procurement system called ProZorro. It's an award-winning software that helps us to fight corruption.

All of that has happened for two reasons. First is the very strong civil society in Ukraine, and second is the very committed western support for all these changes. We appreciate that a lot.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you very much.

I have 30 seconds left, so I don't know if I can get in a question and an answer in this time.

The MAP, or membership action plan, itself would take a long time, would it not? It can often do so. It doesn't seem that this would be a sudden step, even if the membership action plan was started right away. Is that correct?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

That's not the way we see it. When Poland and our Baltic brothers and sisters started their conversation with NATO about entering NATO, many people thought it would be a very long story. Actually, it wasn't. I think we're in a position to start moving forward, and we hope to do so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Harris.

Thank you, Ambassador.

We will now go to Mr. Diotte for five minutes, please.

[Kerry Diotte, Conservative, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Ambassador, it's really good to see you. It's unfortunate that with COVID we can't be in person, but hopefully soon...all that good stuff.

I know Yvan was talking about having gone and observed the election. I did the same, and it really was one of the highlights of my career, especially seeing how Ukrainians really cherish democracy. There's a real lesson for Canadians in that whole thing.

As you know, we were both journalists, and you were probably more famous than I ever was. You actually worked very hard on the movement against censorship. We're kind of working right now, as the official opposition, against Bill C-10, which is kind of a censorship bill. That's neither here nor there, but why is it that the world is not hearing more about what's going on at the border with Russia? It just seems like the media's not there. What can be done? What's happening?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Well, Mr. Diotte, I think if we tried to make a short list of big, huge problems that the world faces right now, it might not be such a short list. I think we can understand that.

Also, we should not neglect the fact that Russia has been working for many years trying to create myths and trying to split the west. Its propaganda machine has never stopped working.

During this major escalation, we also saw that this propaganda machine work full steam. First, they tried to present Ukraine as a country that was about to attack Russia. Second, we saw the narrative that it wasn't actually Ukraine that was trying to attack Russia, but rather it was NATO, including the U.S. and Canada, that was preparing this assault against Russia.

We should think about all these propaganda issues when we talk about hybrid wars and about this complicated world.

[Kerry Diotte, Conservative, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

What can we do about it? It's true that censorship and propaganda are real issues.

If you ask the average Canadian what's going on in Ukraine, there is not a story there, unfortunately. We know only because we are parliamentarians.

How do we get the word out? How do you deal with the disinformation and with the Russians spinning their tales? Where do we go? What can we do?