Foreign Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2021

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you, Colonel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fonseca.

Thank you, Colonel Siromakha.

We will now begin the fourth round.

Colleagues, if we're disciplined in our time, we should be able to finish a complete fourth round. We have to finish at 5:30 because of House of Commons resource constraints tonight. Also, there has been a request from the ambassador's team to do a quick screenshot at the very end of our time together.

We will go right into our fourth round, and I would just encourage all of you, as you have done, to continue to respect the time limits.

We will have Mr. Bezan, please, for five minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Earlier, we were talking about sanctions. Of course, Canada passed the Magnitsky act back in 2018, but unfortunately the government hasn't used it since.

Can you talk about how Magnitsky sanctions have worked to not just send a message to the Kremlin but to hold them accountable for their support of the war in Donbass and for the illegal annexation and occupation of Crimea? That's for Russia as well as other countries that have been corrupt and have abused human rights around the world.

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Mr. Bezan, as you know so well, we stand behind the procedures and mechanisms of the Magnitsky act, and thank you for your contribution to the passing of that very important piece of legislation. I would extend that to all members of Parliament who were involved.

We want the Magnitsky act to be applied specifically to those very demonstrative and very obvious cases of human rights violations in the occupied territories. I can give you one example. Just today, there was a so-called court decision in Russia to give six years in prison to Refat Chubarov, who is the leader of the Mejlis, which is the Crimean Tatar parliament.

That's one of the pieces of this major picture of political oppression against the Crimean Tatars. Those crimes have very clear names associated with them. We are talking about prosecutors, about lawyers, about judges and about those people in the government who are specifically responsible for these repressions, and we want those people to feel that the world is watching.

Again, I would like to assure you that no matter what the Russians say, or no matter what they might laugh about, the sanctions that already apply hurt. They hurt individuals on a very personal level, and they hurt Russia's abilities in general, so we strongly encourage Canada to explore how we can use the existing instruments, including the Magnitsky act, to deter Russia.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you for that.

We look at what's happening today in Minsk, and there is no doubt that there are some parallels to be drawn with what was happening during Euromaidan, with people standing up against a corrupt government under Yanukovych. Do you think Russia will become even more aggressive and that Putin and his proxies may show up on the streets of Minsk as well, like they did in showing up as “little green men” in Crimea?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Yes, and we see that authoritarian regimes are really good at helping each other. They are really good at best practices exchange—or worst practices exchange.

There are very practical results of this close integration of Belarus into the Russian sphere of influence. One of the examples is that Lukashenko has finally let the Russians go ahead with establishing military air bases in Belarus. The Russians can now can freely use all the Belarusian facilities for their jets. That changes the situation in western Europe. I think there is a good chance that we'll see more escalation in the European skies. That creates new threats for Poland, for Slovakia and for our other neighbours.

I just want to leave you with one thought. What you see in Belarus now is the scenario that Putin had for Ukraine in 2014. This is exactly the scenario that Putin has for many other countries to come, and that is why we should see all of these as interconnected pieces.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Why do you think Putin so greatly fears these public protests by these people who are fighting for freedom of the press and for democracy, and who are standing up for human rights? Why does Putin and his kleptocracy in the Kremlin fear this catching hold in the region, and possibly in Moscow itself?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

There is an obvious reason. He is afraid that Russia and the Russian people will follow the case.

Putin has been relatively successful in blocking the civil society of Russia from becoming strong enough and vocal enough, but I think it's quite obvious it's going to be more difficult over the years. One day the refrigerator will win over the TV set. One day people will realize that there are ways to live better in their country. That will be the case with Russia, too, one day.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan, and thank you, Ambassador.

We go now to Ms. Sahota, please, for five minutes.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

This has been a very enjoyable session. Thank you to the ambassador for being here today.

I share the sentiments of many of my colleagues in the questions they've posed and the commitments they've made that we strongly stand with Ukraine. We want to do everything possible to make sure your region will continue to be a fair and free democracy.

On many different democracy indexes, the numbers have been rising. There have been many improvements in Ukraine. I want to congratulate you on the 2019 election. Some of my colleagues were there as observers. They stated that it was a great experience.

I wasn't able to go there, but I was involved in a parliamentary internship program here on Parliament Hill, which I think is a very valuable program. Hopefully, after COVID, we can have that program again. It gave me the opportunity to meet many young people from Ukraine. Although they are very proud of being Ukrainian and of the progress Ukraine has made, there are many concerns about transparency in the democratic process. When it comes to the election process, I think there have been many improvements, but there are still issues when it comes to political and economic corruption.

I read somewhere about a prominent anti-corruption agency created by the government that was then struck down by the Constitutional Court as being unconstitutional. They were investigating many judges at the time. Since Ukraine has taken on new measures of economic and political reforms, including anti-corruption reforms in 2014, what progress has been made thus far? In the areas where there is still more progress to make, what is the plan moving forward?

Perhaps you could highlight again some of the areas, like the rule of law, independent judiciary and even freedom of the press and LGBTQ rights. Those are still major concerns and issues, especially for civil society groups in Ukraine. Perhaps I could have your answer on those things.

Thank you.

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Thank you very much.

I think this, in many ways, reflects the agenda that the Ukrainian government has. Again, we co-operate with Canada on many of those directions.

I would like to refer specifically to this anti-corruption situation. You referred to one very specific episode, when the Constitutional Court decided that it was illegal to require public servants and politicians to declare their benefits and their expenditures. After that decision, the Ukrainian people literally took to the streets. The reaction of the public and across the political class was so strong and so powerful that this decision by the Constitutional Court was reviewed. Now any citizen of Ukraine can clearly see what money Ukrainian politicians and bureaucrats make, and how they spend it. That really shows you how the Ukrainian people feel about this; it makes me very optimistic about the Ukrainian reforms in the future.

At the moment, all our anti-corruption institutions work. That includes the anti-corruption court and especially the anti-corruption prosecutor's office. We hope they will show a very strong and visible result in the near future.

As one last sentence, I would like to acknowledge the success of the Canada-Ukraine parliamentary program. I know many of the parliamentarians here have had Ukrainian interns in their office. I want to reassure you that that's a major investment in a successful Ukraine. Those people have returned to Ukraine to become members of Parliament, ministers and influential civil society leaders. It's a wonderful program that we'd like to see continued.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

It's an absolutely wonderful program.

I know there has been some success in the banking sector. There's more transparency now as to ownership of banks and different corporations.

Could you speak a bit more about the freedom of the press issue?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

We strongly believe in a free press. Even in darker times, Ukraine was well known as a country with a very strong appetite for a free press and a very strong push against any signs of censorship. I hope it will stay that way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Ms. Sahota.

Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Your Excellency, you have clearly demonstrated that the Normandy process and the Minsk agreements have no impact or effect on the situation in Crimea.

I assume that President Zelensky intends to unveil a Crimean Platform in order to address that gap. It is supposed to be unveiled this summer, hopefully on August 1.

Of course, I am not asking you to reveal intimate secrets, but what is the plan with this platform in terms of diplomatic, military, economic and other actions, in order to have Crimea returned to the fold of Ukraine some day?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Monsieur Bergeron, you have given a very good assessment of the reasons we want to go ahead with the Crimean platform.

I can give you a very practical example. It's about sanctions. At this moment, both the European Union and our major allies outside of the European Union have applied sanctions against Russia and those individuals responsible for the occupation and human rights violations.

However, the way we apply sanctions is so different. We assess the situation in different ways. We apply sanctions in different ways, and we have very different ways to monitor the implementation of the sanctions.

The coordination of this effort is long overdue. If we share our practices, if we bring our efforts together in monitoring the situation on the ground, and if we monitor together how the sanctions are implemented, they can have a much greater impact on the ground.

Canada will be a rock star among those nations, because you're quite good at actually following up on those policies.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Your Excellency, am I to understand, between the lines of your answer, that the core of this strategy, this international Crimean Platform, is that you would like to see coordinated measures taken by a large number of nations against Russia, to ensure that the impact is laser‑focused, so to speak, and ultimately produces results, including Donbass and Crimea?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

That is very fair, and that should be very efficient if we think about the different avenues of co-operation, security, human rights, economic policy and so on. We hope this will bring us closer to a good, successful, strategic vision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron, and thank you, Ambassador.

Mr. Harris, please go ahead, for two and half minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Ambassador, along with the rest of world, you have experienced this pandemic for the last year and a bit.

Could you tell us what the experience has been in Ukraine? How has it impacted your country? What are the circumstances like in Ukraine, particularly in the Donbass region? What do you have by way of a vaccine program? Is it working? Is there something the international community is doing, or can do, to help?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

It's a concern that all of us share, no matter which side of the ocean we live on.

Ukraine had a relatively good start in the beginning of the pandemic. We successfully delayed the first hit of the virus last year, and then the situation became much worse. It's still very troublesome.

In Ukraine, only about 5% of the population has been vaccinated so far. We are talking about the first dose—less than 5%—which means we still have so much work to do. We are struggling to find enough vaccines to go ahead with the vaccinations.

You very rightly asked me about the Donbass. That's the area we should be very concerned about. The medical infrastructure along the front line and in the occupied territories has been destroyed or is close to non-existent. There is a big risk that we might face a humanitarian catastrophe in that specific region.

Finally, I want to acknowledge that we co-operate with Canada on COVID-related issues. We share the Canadian approach that we should eliminate all barriers to the free flow of medical supplies and vaccines. We have taken our steps, when it was necessary, to remove the barriers, and we are going to co-operate in the future.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

For one brief second, are there COVAX circumstances? Is that plan of any help to Ukraine?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Yes, but as you can imagine, it's a very small amount that we're getting from there. It's not even close to enough to cover the demand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Harris.

We will now go to Ms. Stubbs.

Welcome to the committee. The floor is yours for five minutes.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Hello, Ambassador. I've had three Ukrainian interns in my office, and there's strong Ukrainian heritage—many families, communities, and two-sister cities with Ukraine—in Lakeland.

You may know that Vegreville, which is home to the world's largest free-standing pysanka, has hosted the Ukrainian chamber, sent councillors to Ukraine as election monitors and donated firefighting supplies and funds to Ukraine and to Crimea. I'm pleased to be here on behalf of Lakeland.

In Canada, there are many examples of Putin's government actively conducting misinformation campaigns on social media and elsewhere. I wonder to what extent that is that happening in Ukraine and what actions are being taken to combat it.