Foreign Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Good afternoon, colleagues.

Welcome to the 38^th meeting of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

We're meeting this afternoon under Standing Order 108(2) and the motion we adopted on May 6, 2021, to receive a briefing on the current situation in Ukraine.

Members, you'll recall that we had agreed to a joint meeting with the Standing Committee on National Defence. The national defence committee currently has a meeting that is suspended, and parliamentary procedure does not allow for a committee to hold two meetings simultaneously. For that reason, the official joint meeting is not able to take place. However, we most certainly and warmly welcome members of the Standing Committee on National Defence to join us this afternoon and to take part in this meeting as guests.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I encourage all participants to mute their microphones when they're not speaking. When you have 30 seconds remaining in your allotted time, I will signal you with a piece of paper. As always, interpretation services are available through the globe icon at the bottom of your screens.

I will now welcome our witnesses from the Embassy of Ukraine in Canada.

We have with us this afternoon His Excellency Andriy Shevchenko, Ambassador of Ukraine to Canada; Colonel Viktor Siromakha, defence, naval and air attaché; and Mr. Oleksii Liashenko, political counsellor.

Ambassador Shevchenko, it's a pleasure to give you the floor for your opening remarks of seven minutes, if you please, and then we'll go to questions from members of the two committees.

Please go ahead, Ambassador. The floor is yours.

[His Excellency Andriy Shevchenko, Ambassador of Ukraine to Canada, Embassy of Ukraine]

Good afternoon, honourable Chair and all the members.

I greatly appreciate your deep interest in the recent alarming events in Ukraine and the neighbourhood. We were impressed with the swift Canadian reaction to the escalation by Russia. We truly felt this overwhelming support across the party lines, from the Ukrainian Canadian Congress and from the wider Canadian public. These events will have a direct impact on the national security of Canada; therefore, it is in the interest of the Canadian public that you and other Canadian decision-makers are well informed on the matter.

To kick off the conversation, I want to share with you just three thoughts.

First, the Russian military buildup along the Ukrainian border is not over. Even after the Russians said they would pull out the troops, a significant portion of the deployment stayed. They have weaponry. Thousands of tanks and armoured vehicles stayed as well. Officially, all of that will stay for Zapad-2021, or West-2021, which is a major military drill scheduled for September. However, it is an immediate threat to us at this very moment.

We see no changes for the better along the border in the occupied territories of Donbass, where the Russians have two army corps ready to use. Of course, as we speak, the Russians continue to turn the Crimean peninsula into a huge military base, which is supposed to boost Moscow's capabilities in the Black Sea and in the Mediterranean.

Again, we're witnessing the biggest military buildup by the Russians against Ukraine since the invasion of 2015, and it is very far from being over.

My second thought is about the wider context. In fact, nothing between Russia and any given neighbour is bilateral. There is always a wider geography behind every aggressive move that Putin makes. This is why we should also watch closely all the unfriendly actions towards the Baltic nations, Moldova—which is struggling desperately to get out of the Russian group—and Belarus.

It was very important that Canada was not a bystander in the situation with the forced landing of the Ryanair flight. We see increasing Russian military activity in the European skies and a major military buildup in the Arctic. Let's also not overlook the cyber-attacks in the United States.

To summarize, we should see this as a massive, dangerous, multi-level, anti-western operation with many technical goals and ways to challenge the free world and with one strategic purpose, which is to deconstruct the existing international order.

This is why—and this is my third comment—Canada and its NATO allies should rethink, upgrade and boost their response to the aggressive Russian actions.

We are pleased to see Jens Stoltenberg, NATO's Secretary General, identifying Russia as a major threat to the alliance in the next 10 years. We are looking forward to the upcoming NATO summit. We believe this is the time we should finally lay down a clear path for Ukraine to become a NATO member.

We thank Canada for its commitment to the 2008 decision by the Bucharest summit to go ahead with the membership action plan for Ukraine and Georgia. Today, 13 years later, we must finally start moving forward. We want NATO to utilize our defence and intelligence capabilities, our experience, our soft power influence across the region and our readiness to stand up for the free world.

I truly believe that Canada is in a perfect position to discuss with its NATO allies the benefits of having Ukraine in NATO. We want Canada's voice to be heard at the Brussels summit and in all the conversations and decisions about the future of the security system in Europe.

As a former parliamentarian myself, I know that time is a very hard currency in the parliamentary setting. It can possibly be beaten in value only by this undivided attention that I'm very privileged to have, so I'm going to save the rest of my time for the benefit of a free conversation.

I would like to brainstorm together on what Canada and Ukraine can do to secure peace and order. I'll be happy to talk in detail about Operation Unifier and sanctions against the aggressor, about defence assistance and intelligence exchange, about the Crimean platform and about the recent developments in Belarus and the wider neighbourhood.

Honourable Chair, I am looking forward to this meaningful and very timely conversation. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Ambassador, thank you so much for your opening remarks. We will now go to round one of questions. These are six-minute segments that go to members of Parliament, and leading us off this afternoon will be Mr. Chong. The floor is yours, please.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank Ambassador Shevchenko and the delegation from the Embassy of Ukraine for joining our committee today. It's good to see you again, Ambassador.

Canada and Ukraine have historic ties. As you know, over a million Canadians trace their roots back to Ukraine. On December 2, 1991, Prime Minister Mulroney recognized Ukraine's independence and Canada became the first western country to do so.

Under Prime Minister Harper, Canada strongly condemned Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea and interference in Ukraine, and commenced Operation Unifier. The current government, led by Prime Minister Trudeau, continues to support Ukraine with the continuance of Operation Unifier, the Canadian training-led mission in Ukraine. We strongly support Ukraine's independence and its territorial integrity, and so we thank you for taking the time to appear in front of our committee today.

Ambassador, a year and a half ago, our two countries were tied together in tragedy with the shooting down of Ukrainian Airlines flight 752 by Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, which killed 85 Canadians and many Canadian residents. The families of those victims are still seeking justice. Recently the Ontario Superior Court concluded that the IRGC committed a terrorist act. We've been calling on the government to list the IRGC as a terrorist entity under the Criminal Code.

Does Ukraine consider the downing of flight 752 to be a terrorist act? What is its position on the shooting down of this airliner?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Thank you very much.

First of all, I should say that we share this pain about this very tragic incident, and I feel that it's extremely important for Canada and Ukraine to closely co-operate on this matter. This means proper investigation, which is not happening right now. It means fair financial compensation for the families of the victims, and it also means that we should find proper ways to hold responsible those people who were responsible for the downing of the plane.

At the moment we are considering different scenarios for how we can move forward. Probably you know that, as we speak, an Iranian delegation is in Kiev, Ukraine, to continue negotiations with Ukraine. Ukraine speaks on behalf of all five countries involved, and I would like to reassure you that Iran won't be able to split us. We will speak with one voice, and this is the way to move forward.

Following on from the question, yes, we are considering all the possible scenarios and options.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Ukraine borders Belarus. A week ago President Lukashenko ordered a MiG-29 to force down Ryanair flight 4978. Like Ukraine Airlines flight 752 and Malaysia Airlines flight 17—a flight that was downed over Ukraine, killing hundreds of Dutch citizens—that forcing down of Ryanair flight 4978 could have ended in disaster.

We believe that Alexander Lukashenko must be held responsible for this violation of international air transport rules.

What is Ukraine's position on the forcing down of this Ryanair flight? What action is Ukraine taking in international fora such as the ICAO, seeing that three flights in the last seven years connected to Ukraine have been affected by authoritarian states?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

We share your view of this situation. We see this as a forced landing. I think Canada did the right thing with its swift reaction to this situation. Ukraine has banned flights to and from Belarus, and we co-operate with our European and international allies with further sanctions against Belarus.

I have one more thought on this. We all should realize that it would be very difficult to imagine that Lukashenko made the decision without having President Putin behind him. We see Belarus becoming integrated into the Russian military and political decisions, and this is the way we should see it.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Ambassador.

I have a final question. As you know, Canada is helping Ukraine fight corruption and strengthen the rule of law. Mr. Michael Yurkovich, a Canadian, has built 54 megawatts of power projects in Ukraine, investing a total of $65 million. One of those projects is a 10.5-megawatt solar project in Nikopol. However, the project appears to have been blocked by Ihor Kolomoisky, a Ukrainian billionaire, and Ukraine's courts do not appear to be upholding the rule of law.

I have two questions. First, has the Canadian government made any representation to you on this issue? Second, what is your government doing to address this situation?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

We are closely following the situation, and I should tell you that we greatly cherish this very important Canadian investment in the Ukrainian economy, specifically because it's about renewable energy, so it's a very important one.

Yes, this issue has been raised across party lines by the Canadian officials and by the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. This is a good sign that we should take the situation very seriously, and this is the way the Ukrainian government treats it. It's in the courts; we hope there will be a good solution.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I have a very quick question, seeing that I have a few seconds left.

What is Ukraine's position on the $15-billion canal that Turkey wants to build between the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

I wouldn't be able to comment on that today, but I should tell you that we think all the interests should be taken into account when major decisions are taken.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Thank you, Ambassador.

We will now go to the next member of Parliament, Mr. Fonseca, for six minutes, please.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Ambassador Shevchenko, and your colleagues. It's wonderful to have you here. The last time we spoke, of course, was through our Canada-Ukraine parliamentary friendship group, and having our chair, Yvan Baker, here is terrific. At that time, we had an opportunity to speak about our relations. Of course, Canada stands firmly behind our friends in Ukraine and has led successive operations to help Ukraine—as well as providing funds. Since the illegal occupation of Crimea—in 2014, I believe—Canada has assisted Ukraine with over $800 million through different programs.

You brought up in your remarks how you want to bolster these actions and sanctions on Russia. Since 2014, the United States, Canada and the EU have imposed targeted sanctions on certain Russian and Ukrainian individuals associated with the Russian intervention in the Donbass region and Crimea, and against certain sectors of the Russian economy.

I want to ask you this: What effect have these sanctions had so far on the conflict in the Donbass region and Crimea? I also want to ask you this: In terms of bolstering those actions, should we put more people on that list? Do you have a list of other individuals to provide to us in relation to the further retaliatory actions and the amassing of these troops now in the area? Should we be putting more people on that list?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Thank you, Mr. Fonseca.

First of all, the sanctions work. There are very strong and convincing studies that actually calculate the damage that was done to the Russian economy by the sanctions. This means it has slowed down economic growth for Russia. In very practical terms, this means they have much less money to spend on waging war against Ukraine and on waging other clear, aggressive actions against the free world, so sanctions work.

There are several avenues for our consideration for the future. First is the Magnitsky legislation. It was a very important decision by the Canadian Parliament, and we would like to see it working against those Russian individuals who are responsible for corruption and for human rights violations. Second is sectoral sanctions. I think we should think about SWIFT and everything that goes with that. Also, I think we should pay attention to how Russia deals with its sovereign debt. We should make sure the Russians do not have an easy walk finding money in international markets to cover their sovereign debt. One final comment is that we should look into Black Sea activities and we should probably punish Russia and its ships for violating international rules.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Okay. That's excellent.

Would you be able to provide us with a list of the actions you would like to see, as well as other individuals—I believe the list I see here is at about 440 Russian and Ukrainian individuals—and entities that should be added to that list to strengthen the actions and sanctions on Russia?

Ambassador, the question I have now is more a domestic one, but it's very important in my riding of Mississauga East—Cooksville. We have a large diaspora community here in Mississauga. We have one of the biggest Ukrainian churches here in Mississauga East—Cooksville, and many constituents come to me and want their relatives to be able to visit. There could be a new birth in the family or something else that has happened in terms of a milestone, and it has sometimes been difficult for Ukrainians to get a visa to be able to visit.

I know that visa was waived within Europe, and Ukrainians are able to travel throughout Europe. It has been gone for a number of years and things have worked well.

What does Canada need to do to get that visa waived so that Ukrainians will be able travel without that visa restriction?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

A visa-free regime for our citizens is a major goal that we have and we are very committed to working towards that. That is why Ukraine has cancelled visas for Canadian citizens. Any Canadian citizen can come to Ukraine for up to six months without a visa. I can report to you that we were very happy to see our two countries launch the mobility working group, which should specifically help our two governments explore how we can make sure our people can travel freely from one country to another.

Yes, as you so rightly said, we have started our visa-free regime with the European Union, with the Schengen countries. It has been working extremely well, and this is our goal. We should make sure we can benefit from this free exchange of people and ideas. It's good for business, and between our two countries, I'm absolutely sure this is the right way to move forward.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I couldn't agree with you more, and I hope we can do that as quickly as possible.

I see the chair is putting up the signal that I have 30 seconds remaining.

You brought up NATO. What has been Russia's reaction to NATO's support and involvement in the reforms in Ukraine? Could you just quickly, in 30 seconds, let us know?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

They are trying to split the NATO countries on this issue. That's why we need countries such as Canada to be very vocal, and we would like Canada to talk more to its partners across NATO, to make sure they know what Canada knows about Ukraine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fonseca.

Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Your Excellency. My regards to the people who are with you.

I would like to extend my regards not only to my colleagues from the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, but also those from the Standing Committee on National Defence who are with us as observers.

Your Excellency, we know that Russia has announced the withdrawal of its troops, who were supposed to return to their barracks on May 1. However, a number of indications, including from the United States, suggest that troops are still massed on the border of Ukraine or, at the very least, still maintain a significant amount of equipment there. Your comments also seemed to confirm this.

What explains this conflict in discourse between the announcement of the opening of the border and the withdrawal of troops, and the reality that troops and a considerable amount of equipment remain on the border with Ukraine?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Thank you very much for your question. It is an important one.

I would refer you to some of the visuals that we shared with the members of the committee. You might want to look at the first slides. They give you some data with numbers as to what we have along the Ukrainian border.

What exactly is happening? Most of the mass military movement of equipment to the border of Ukraine happened in March and April, and there was only a partial withdrawal of troops. The vast majority of the equipment still remains in position. In preparation for Zapad-2021, this major drill, Russians have created logistics bases in Belarus, and some western military analysts believe these bases will become permanent. That did not happen in previous Zapad exercises, so this leaves us with the very clear understanding that it's a very new context, a new situation, and that's why we should take it very seriously.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

According to your interpretation of the situation and the intelligence information that you have received, what explains this concentration of troops and equipment on the border?

Is it the prospect of Ukraine joining NATO in the near future or is it the desire for a new attack on Donbass, for example?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

We can assume that the Russians have considered several military options. First, they gathered this massive amount of force around the city of Drohobych, posing a direct threat to our major city of Kharkiv.

Second, there is this vulnerable direction towards the city of Mariupol, along the Azov Sea. The Russians have been dreaming for quite a long time of creating a land bridge from the Russian mainland to occupied Crimea.

Finally, there are plenty of options with the expansion of the occupation zone into wider Donbass. There can be a lot of possible reasons the Russians want to try to do that, and we can explore it further, but one way or another, they are testing our reactions. They have been testing the reactions of the west, and I think they have badly miscalculated the response.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

We know that, in this context of extreme tensions between Ukraine and Russia, President Zelensky has put forward the idea of a platform in order to take a number of areas back into Ukraine. He also hoped to have the platform launched in August 2021, so that it would coincide with the 30th anniversary of Ukraine's independence.

Do you think that this platform has any chance of success, given Russia's somewhat aggressive posture right now?