Foreign Affairs Committee on April 15th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 102 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders, and therefore members are attending in person in the room as well as remotely by using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the members as well as the witnesses.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name.

You may speak in the official language of your choice.

Although this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to the interpreters and can cause serious injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to a microphone.

With regard to a speaking list, the clerk will kindly see to it that we have a roster of questions.

Today, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, January 29, 2024, the committee will resume its study of Canada's approach to Africa.

I would like to welcome our distinguished witnesses.

We have with us today, as individuals, Mr. David Black, who is a professor at Dalhousie University, and Mr. Christopher Roberts, who is a fellow with the Canadian Global Affairs Institute.

We're also pleased to have with us the president and chief executive officer of the Canadian Council on Africa, Mr. Nola Kianza.

You will each have five minutes to give your opening remarks. Please do look over at me every once in a while, because I will indicate when you should wrap up as soon as possible, not only when you're giving your opening remarks but also when the members are asking you questions.

I believe we will start with Mr. Black.

Mr. Black, the floors is yours. You have five minutes.

[David Black, Full Professor, Dalhousie University, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to the members of the committee.

This is a great opportunity to participate in this timely and important study. As someone who has spent much of his life thinking about how Canadians have and should engage with African countries and people, I'm happy to see signs of renewed interest in Canada's approach to Africa—not least at this committee.

There are very good reasons that Africa should be the focus of more sustained and strategic policy interest. However, in thinking about the ways this occurs, we should be under no illusions about the degree to which Canada has become more marginal to African interests and actors. This increased marginality is partly due to structural changes in the international domain, but it is also self-inflicted.

Practically, it means that in pursuing renewed engagement with Africa, we are playing catch-up. In this context, we should be modest in our expectations, consistent and consultative in our commitments, comprehensive in our thinking and careful not to make exaggerated claims for the importance of what we are doing.

I say this not to diminish the important ongoing efforts of many Canadians and Africans at both intergovernmental and transsocietal levels to engage in mutually beneficial ways. Indeed, relationships between Canada and Africa are more diverse and more diversified than ever. At the level of official Canadian policy, however, an always limited overall level of commitment has diminished over the past two decades at precisely the same time as many other governments were recognizing Africa's growing economic, security, diplomatic and political importance and undertaking new initiatives to forge deeper and more strategic relationships.

Historically, Canada's involvement in Africa rested on a comparatively broad but disconnected and shallow foundation of international development assistance; periodic and sometimes troubled military and police deployments to multilateral peace operations; commitments to multilateral bodies with large African memberships, including la Francophonie and the Commonwealth; and people-to-people links through civil society organizations. Later, these were broadened by the impactful but controversial role of the Canadian extractive sector.

Periodically, however, these more routine points of contact were supplemented by prominent Canadian diplomatic initiatives. Two particularly prominent examples, among many, were the Mulroney government's sustained engagement with the struggle to end apartheid—which we've been reminded of with Prime Minister Mulroney's recent passing—and the Chrétien government's championing of the Africa action plan through what was then the G8 in 2002. These kinds of initiatives were never part of a comprehensive African strategy. We've never had one. However, they occurred often enough to regularly renew the idea that Canada could and should play key roles in issues that matter to Africans.

Since the mid-2000s, however, this intermittent African impulse has largely dissipated, and sustained, high-level interest and engagement with Africa have been notably lacking. In the face of previous Canadian initiatives on the continent, as well as escalating interest from governments elsewhere, this came across as relative indifference. This was true not only in a general sense, but in key bilateral relationships such as that with post-apartheid South Africa.

It is this sense of relatively diminished interest that needs to be confronted in pursuing a renewed approach to Africa.

To be sure, in a time of urgent demands in other parts of the world and scarce resources, a more concerted focus on Africa may seem difficult to justify, although I don't get the sense that I have to justify it to this committee. Engaging with the continent is important for both self-interested and systemic reasons, many of which you have already heard about. I watched your opening session. It was a very useful background.

Africa's potential economic upside is greater than any other global region's, yet its security and humanitarian challenges are more widespread in ways that have systemic impacts and could greatly limit its potential.

Major collective action challenges that we're all affected by, including forced migration, global health and environmental sustainability simply cannot be successfully faced down without African partnerships.

Finally, because of its growing importance as well as its large number of states, Africa is of great and growing international diplomatic importance. Broadly, this places Africa at the fulcrum of growing world order tensions, and I hope we get a chance to talk about those in the course of our conversation. Narrowly, Canada's inability to gain significant support from African governments was important in the failure of our last two campaigns for a non-permanent seat on the UN Security Council.

Given these incentives to engage, it is entirely appropriate for the government to explore ways of enhancing Canada's involvement in Africa. In doing so, however, it is important that we build on Canada's diverse but unconsolidated connections to develop a more sustained, comprehensive and respectful approach.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Professor Black.

We'll now go to Mr. Roberts. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Christopher W. J. Roberts, Fellow, Canadian Global Affairs Institute, As an Individual]

Thank you very much to the committee for inviting me to participate in these important deliberations on Canada's approach to Africa.

I received the invitation while I was between airports. I was between Lusaka and Dar es Salaam, so that was perfect timing.

Let me jump into my analysis about how we need to reconceptualize and restructure in order to re-engage with the African continent. Again, this is my personal perspective.

First, we need to reconceptualize. I think David has done a good job of starting that process. Canadians have a difficult time conceptualizing the African continent within a broader foreign, trade, and defence policy framework. That statement for some, though, is meaningless, because it has a simple counter: In any list of international priorities facing the Canadian government, Africa, or any specific country or crisis, can never rise to the level of a core national interest.

However, the question today for all of us here isn't about making the continent a top priority, and it's also not about cutting all ties. As David pointed out, it is about recognizing how these complex global realities we're facing show us that Canada needs to improve its engagement in this particular region of the world for mutual benefits after years of neglect.

As the defence policy update of last week reiterated:

Canada's interests are advanced by an international order that is free, open, stable and governed by the rule of law, and we have a responsibility to Canadians and our like-minded partners and allies to play an integral role in maintaining global stability.

Until we as Canadians understand that most African states are also dependent on—and most African citizens are desirous of—both international and domestic orders governed by the rule of law, we will not understand how best to restructure our engagement.

Additionally, I'm going to briefly outline two extreme interpretations that should not be followed as we look for a more careful engagement.

On the one hand, we will sometimes hear about, as was pointed out, the overly optimistic position that stresses Africa's demographic bulge of youth, all of them tech-savvy. I've heard this just in the last few weeks. This is the future global workforce, while other populations shrink around the world.

We have the African continental free trade area agreement, which is supposed to ignite regional trade. We see that Africa as a region, in the current 2024 estimates, is going to be the fastest-growing region in the world, at anywhere from 3% to 6%. Those are all the good things.

There's also the opposite perspective, the overly pessimistic perspective, that highlights a resurgence of coups, authoritarian drifts and an unending high level of political violence and war from the Sahel through Cameroon, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Mozambique, Sudan, and the Horn of Africa. There are also emerging sovereign debt crises reminiscent of the 1980s.

Those are the positive and negative sides, but what I'm trying to argue here is that we need to acknowledge the following five realities.

First, Canada is a federal constitutional democracy that operates under the rule of law, while most Africans also aspire to political systems underpinned by the rule of law.

Second, Canada is facing productivity challenges and various things at home, but we are still a trade-dependent nation with significant mining and investment abroad, including across the African continent, and commitments shared with Africans to the sustainable development goals.

Third, we are also unique in the west in terms of our relationship with Africa, which is historic, and I can go into that later. We have a unique position compared to all other G7 and NATO countries vis-à-vis Africa.

Fourth, historically, Canada follows American and French foreign policy leads in Africa, but as the last few years have hopefully shown us, that approach is no longer tenable, if it ever was.

Last, we cannot deny that Africa faces more challenges today, given various things that have also gone on over the last few years.

What I'm trying to argue here is that we need to have more nimble policy levers. We need to have more coordinated leadership and diplomatic persistence, backed by knowledge-based decision-making, and not momentary value-signalling, or as Joe Clark, ex-foreign minister, wrote a decade ago, “lectures and leaves”.

Restructuring requires leadership, and we could talk about how we actually get leadership to coordinate everything that Canada does, or could do, on the continent.

I've submitted a brief that has more details on my five key points, but I'll provide the key points on immediate actions for re-engagement with the continent.

First, ensure that there is a well-resourced, factual understanding of the history and effects of Canadian policy and engagement with African countries, relevant international organizations, and other actors—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Perhaps you can wrap it up in less than 30 seconds, please.

[Christopher W. J. Roberts]

Yes, absolutely. That's perfect.

Second, fix a broken visa system for Africans. Nola might talk about that too.

Third, stop taking policy leads in Africa from France, the United States, the U.K. or the EU. We are more relevant when we have our own knowledge and ideas when it comes to the African continent.

Fourth, stop assuming that the interests of one or two Canadian businesses operating in a country represent Canada's national interest in that country.

Last, understand that Canada's diplomatic, development, economic and defence relationships on the continent can have significant effects despite their relatively small size.

I'm happy to talk about any of that as we go on.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

We now turn to Mr. Kianza. Mr. Kianza, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Nola Kianza, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council on Africa]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. Thank you very much for this opportunity. I feel as if I'm home. I can see faces that have seen us.

The Canadian Council on Africa has been around for over 20 years—22 years, to be exact. We were created for the sole purpose of promoting trade and economic development between the continent of Africa and Canada. My predecessors just spoke on the whole background of Africa, but I'm going to talk just about common sense.

When we talk about Africa, what is Africa? We are talking about a huge market here of 54 countries. We are talking about 1.2 billion people. We know all these statistics, but why should Canada be looking at Africa?

I'm going to be focusing on the business side, the economic side.

One thing I want to raise from the beginning is that when we talk about Canada, we are talking about trying to help. We are doing aid, but let's remember one thing: If our economy is not working in this country, then we are not going to have aid. In Africa, if they don't have the economy working, then there's no sustainability.

The Canadian Council on Africa was created to promote Canadian businesses. We thought there was potentially a market in Africa, a huge market. Of late we have seen that Africa has moved to consolidating its market with a continental free trade agreement, which is going to create, as Chris mentioned, one of the largest markets.

What are we doing in Canada? We are basically sitting here and saying, “Oh, Africa.” I'm not coming here to tell you how to help Africa; I'm talking about how we can help Canadian companies to take opportunities to look at the opportunities on that continent.

I just asked, “Why Africa?” and I talked about the size of the market. Why Canada, then? When people look at Canada, they look at the business ethics. They look at Canadians' values. They look at expertise. They look at know-how. They look at our technology. We have done this before. What is agriculture? What is telecommunications? What is infrastructure? We have done these things.

Canada is built on small businesses. I come from working with Canadian manufacturers and exporters, small businesses. That's what built this country. We can communicate well with Africa. This is what Africans have been looking for from Canadians, but what do we go there for? We say, “We can come and help you” or “We have money.” They are not asking for money; they are asking for people to come and work with them to build their economies.

This is what I want us to understand: We are not doing this for Africa. The world has changed today. I'm talking about Canadians. How do we help Canadians? The policy we are talking about is to build the economy. When you bring businesses together, everything else works.

Let me say this. Do you know why there is insecurity? Do you know why there are all of these wars? When those young people are not working, what do you think they are going to do? When they are not working, when there are no jobs.... Kids are going to university. We have top universities. Yes, they are studying, but there are no jobs. When there are no jobs, anybody can lure those young people into doing whatever. Then we say, “Oh, we want this security.” How are you going to build security?

Here at home, if the economy is not working, we are also going to see that insecurity mounting, so we have to build our companies here in Canada. I'm talking to our companies here.

In business, people need information. They are looking not just for money but also for information. Our government should put their resources into our trade commissioner services, into our department. If you go to an African department, you find two people sitting there, and they cannot give you much information. They need resources. We need better information. We need to find a better way of putting Canadians together so that we can share information. That's what we need.

I think we need Canada to change now.

Africa is looking up to Canada. Do you know what we are looking for from Canada? Where is your expertise? Where is your know-how? We want your values. Even if we have other nations coming, we want Canadians, because we know how you do things.

I want our governments to take leadership. We used to lead when Canada was the voice of reason. When Canadians were walking in the road, people would say, “Look at the Canadians”, but now they don't even know where we fit in.

I want to end by saying this: We have a golden opportunity. The African market is there for us. What I am coming to ask you, very simply, is to help me to work with Canadian companies so that we can take them to Africa. Africa needs business. They don't need aid; they need business. That's all they need.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Mr. Kianza.

We now open it up to the members for questions.

We'll start off with MP Epp. You have five minutes,

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Those were three excellent testimonies. There is so much here to unpack.

Mr. Black, I will start with you and the big picture.

The U.S. is Canada's most strategic partner across a whole host of things. The statement that came out from the recent G7 meeting in November actually talked about Africa being in seventh place after Ukraine, and I won't take the time to list them all.

Is that where Africa should be, from Canada's position? Given the Indo-Pacific, given the south Caucasus, given Ukraine, given Gaza, where should Africa be in Canada's priority?

[David Black]

Well, you would expect me to say it should be much higher up than that.

I think we need to appreciate how pivotal Africa has become. I talked about Africa as a sort of world order ferment fulcrum. It's the place where lots of these global tensions are coming together in quite profound ways. I listened to your meeting last week and was struck by all the references to Russia and China. That concern is really important, but there is much more than that going on. There is a kind of tectonic shift taking place, and I think the plates are meeting in the African context.

It's not so much that Africa stands alone; it is at the centrepiece of these shifting dynamics globally. How we navigate those dynamics is really important to what kind of world we will move into in the coming generation.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Who speaks for Africa?

[David Black]

One thing we need to be careful about is speaking about Africa as if there's “an” Africa. There's the African Union, of course, and I think Canada took a really important step in establishing a permanent observer mission at the African Union. However, there are multiple Africas, and they are often fractious with each other. They are at very different levels of potential—Chris alluded to this—in that many of them are taking off, while others are caught in a vicious cycle of conflict and poverty.

We need to be able to position ourselves in relation to those multiple Africas. We need to develop a few strategic points of contact in different regions representing different dimensions of those Africas.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I asked that question to set up the next one. Should Canada develop a comprehensive African strategy? Is that even in the realm of possibility?

I think of the Mercator map, or whatever, that destroys or distorts Africa's position in the world. We've heard about 25% of the world's youthful population. Mr. Kianza spoke of the potential of the economy. However, is it even possible to develop a comprehensive strategy, or should Canada focus...? Our past successes in engagement with South Africa's apartheid were more narrowly focused when we, in our position in the world, could maybe make a difference.

I'll ask Mr. Roberts if he wants to wade in first on having a very broad strategy or one that is more narrowly defined.

[Christopher W. J. Roberts]

Canada needs to have a broad, comprehensive strategy for the continent of Africa. I don't know why that has never happened. We've now done it for the Indo-Pacific and we've done it for other areas of the world. We absolutely need it. I would argue that we need it even more for our relationship with the continent of Africa, because there will never be sustained political leadership on that relationship.

There will be for the United States, and China will always spring up, and the Euro-Atlantic countries. However, without an actual strategy that pulls together the multiple elements of the Canadian government's relationship, working as well with NGOs and business.... Without that kind of overarching, coordinating function that maybe stands in place of political leadership, we will end up with more of the same.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I hear you from the Canadian perspective, but what about from the African perspective? The AU just published a paper entitled “Agenda 2063: The Africa We Want”. By “we”, I assume the AU is speaking from its own perspective. I understand pulling our multi-siloed Canadian government approach into a more comprehensive approach, but do we go to all of Africa, or do we go to a subregion?

You mentioned the Indo-Pacific, but that's not all of Asia. I never hear of Thailand, Korea or Australia talking about a North American strategy; it's always more specific.

Do we go broadly pan-African, or do we zero in on a subregion or what we can do to bring expertise to the table?

[Christopher W. J. Roberts]

I don't think Canada knows enough to zero in on a subregion, because the continent is huge, and things change. I think we do need to have a presence under a strategy that gives us some opportunities to be relevant when we need to be relevant.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We will go next to MP Chatel. You have five minutes.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us today.

Mr. Kianza, you mentioned the importance of forming an economic partnership. I have two questions for you.

First, what do you think are the two most promising sectors in which Canada could amplify its engagement and its economic relations with the African continent, in particular with the African Union?

[Nola Kianza]

Canada is engaged in several key sectors. We are already very strong in the natural resources sector, for example. However, there are other sectors in which we could expand our involvement, such as energy, infrastructure, agriculture, education, engineering and technology. There are so many fields we could work in.

Take Quebec, for example. Quebec has four bureaus in Africa. We have partners like 48^e Nord International. It is often small technology firms that go over there to work with their African partners. They are not looking for anything else. They set off and bring only their know-how with them, whether in technology, machinery or other fields.

I will give you another example. We had a conference with the Prime Minister of Burkina Faso, who was accompanied by the ministers responsible for agriculture and livestock. In Africa, almost everything is imported. At the time of the conference, there was discussion about how Burkina Faso was producing a lot of livestock. All it needed was slaughterhouses. We already have that know-how here. What was needed was to explore how we could take our know-how over there.

The same is true for other fields, such as infrastructure and transportation. One example is railways. We already have knowledge that we can take over there. We are also champions in the fields of energy and technology.

Our organization has also signed an agreement with the Toronto International Film Festival. People involved in movie production have invited the Canadian Council on Africa to partner with them. Africans will be invited here to work in partnership with Canadians so the Canadians can show them how to produce their films well, everything they can do in post-production, and the technologies they can use. These people will be arriving in September with an invitation to come and see what we are doing.

These initiatives enable us to showcase Canadian expertise. We have a lot of things to offer when it comes to our know-how and technologies, and, most importantly, our values and our way of doing business. That is what people appreciate about Canadians. There may be others who have more to offer in terms of money, and we may not be able to compete with the Chinese in that regard, for example, but people want to work with Canadians because of how we do things and what we are like. That is what they are looking for from Canadians.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

A little earlier in this study, we were also talking about the advantage offered by bilingualism and the francophonie. That is an asset for Canadians.

I agree very strongly with you. You cited examples in various sectors. In fact, the sectors you named were also mentioned by other witnesses.

Can you tell us quickly what the three main obstacles are that prevent Canada from doing more when it comes to trade, in your opinion?

[Nola Kianza]

First, when it comes to doing business, it is important to define what that involves. In simple terms, we can say that doing business means buying and selling. In order to buy and sell, however, you have to have information. I think the first obstacle is the lack of information. We want to have enough information here about these markets.

The second obstacle relates to how resources are allocated. I talked about that. Our trade commissioners who are on the ground need resources. Everywhere business is being done, there have to be resources there.

What other obstacles are there? Some might say that there is corruption in certain places, but I will not go into that. When people have information, they find a way of doing business and entering those markets.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We go next to Monsieur Perron. You have five minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us today.

Mr. Kianza, you are off to a good start, so let's keep going together.

I was very pleased to hear you say that Africa does not need aid as much as it needs economic activities, collaboration, co-operation and ways of doing things.

For example, for marketing local products, particularly in agriculture, Canada and Quebec have a supply management system that is extremely effective. In fact, there is a bill being studied in the Senate to make sure that system will never be touched. We hope it will pass.

Do you think that is the kind of thing that should be established?

You mentioned the bureaus that Quebec has. I imagine you are also familiar with the activities of UPA Développement international in the field of co-operation. I would like you to tell us more about that.