Evidence of meeting #102 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
We have a few investment treaties. How many trade offices do we have in Africa, this place that Mr. Black suggested represents greater opportunity than any other region in the world?
4:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council on Africa
Right now I think we have about 20.
4:20 p.m.
Fellow, Canadian Global Affairs Institute, As an Individual
How many of those are even TCS officers? We have a lot of locally engaged staff, but the number of actual trade offices that you think are well staffed for that size of a continent is a problem, and I completely agree with Nola.
4:20 p.m.
Fellow, Canadian Global Affairs Institute, As an Individual
4:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council on Africa
We are under-resourced big time. The whole thing.... Just look at the importance of the market. If we thought the market was important, we would put enough resources into it.
April 15th, 2024 / 4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank the witnesses for being here today.
I would like to focus on governance.
Mr. Black, you can comment on this.
There will be 13 elections coming up in Africa in 2024, to my knowledge. You said that Canada has played a unique role in the G7 in the past. How do see us contributing to good governance in Africa as it relates to these 13 countries in 2024, but also in general? Would you like to comment?
4:20 p.m.
Full Professor, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
It's been a much longer issue, of course, well before 2024.
One of the challenges that we're grappling with in relating to African countries is the deep sense of disaffection with the world as it has been constituted. There's a sense of anti-colonial push-back. To some degree, the way that is playing out is a reaction to the form of liberal democracy that was presented to African governments as a conditionality.
Nola talked about the need for dialogue. There needs to be a dialogic approach. It starts now, but carries on well beyond the elections of this period of time, which is not about “We know how to do things, and this is the way things should be done.” It's about listening, engaging and being open to the possibility that there are other ways of doing democratic political life than the ones we have imagined.
That's a very roundabout academic answer.
The other thing I would say is that governance is not just about electoral processes but also about administrative processes. That has to do with investment possibilities. It has to do with how we deal with extractive sector challenges. All of those things need to be part of the equation as well.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Certainly.
This is the committee of foreign affairs and international development. I would suggest that trade, especially, supports foreign affairs and whatnot.
Mr. Kianza, can you explain how economic relations support diplomatic relations and build closer relationships between nations?
Can you talk a bit about that, please?
4:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council on Africa
I can definitely talk about that.
4:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council on Africa
I can talk about that.
The first thing is that we need to regain trust. For somebody to listen to you....
We are talking about elections. Before you even get in to give any advice, you have to gain trust. Right now, Africans feel that we are not even listening to their issues. We keep telling them something and they are telling us something. They are giving us different signals and we are giving them different signals. We cannot even get with them in a room.
We need to start there. Africans want to build their economies. We need to go to the table and say, “We hear you. We are coming to you and we can work together.” By doing that, you can then start suggesting other things, because the other things that we have done before are not quite there.
They don't want anyone to come and tell them, “This is how democracy should work.” No. They want to know—
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
I'm afraid I'm going to have to cut you off, Mr. Kianza.
We now go to Mr. Perron. You have a minute and a half.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Roberts, you heard my earlier conversation with Mr. Kianza about how serious Canada's approach is to Africa and about investment. I concluded my questions by addressing the issue of security. From what I see in the briefing note, you have some expertise in that area.
I do not know how well we even understand what is going on when there are coups d'état or upheavals. That said, how can we be better equipped? First, we have to have a clear understanding of the situations, of course, and we have to be there. Apart from that, what recommendations could the committee make to the government in order to ensure the security of the investments that might be made in Africa?
4:25 p.m.
Fellow, Canadian Global Affairs Institute, As an Individual
I'm going to have to respond en anglais.
Your question to me is still related to what Nola and David have just spoken about, which is that coups are just a form of governance that has gone bad. People have lost faith in the political system, and the youth, who then don't have jobs, seem to be on the side of the coup. They're promoting the coup. They want change and they're willing to support an unconstitutional change of government. That is all then part and parcel of the insecurity that folks are feeling, especially across the Sahel but also in Nigeria and other places.
On this idea that we can separate security from governance and from development, we can't, and this is why we need a strategy. We can't silo trade with security and peacekeeping. We need to have a strategy that identifies that these are linked and we need to have a presence that sees that they're linked.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
For the final question, we go to MP McPherson. You have a minute and a half.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
It's a minute and a half.
What I'd like to get to a little bit is I feel like—or certainly, this is the belief—that the African continent, the countries within Africa, have become much better at working cohesively together, much better at having a common vision and working together on that. I don't think we as a country have responded to that adequately.
What are the implications of a stronger pan-African movement, whether it's in multilateral fora or whether it's in our bilateral relationship?
4:25 p.m.
Full Professor, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
I want to partly walk back what I said in one of my first responses about the diversity of Africa and just make the point that Africans have always aspired to think of their position in the world in pan-African terms.
That doesn't mean that they don't have different ideas about what pan-Africanism means, but they have moved much more systematically towards that vision and to operationalizing that vision. That means that they function increasingly as a bloc in a variety of multilateral settings. It makes them much, much less policy takers and much more policy asserters, in terms of global affairs, and we have to get used to that idea. We're not in the position that we were as part of a western bloc that delivered conditionalities to indebted parts of the world. That equation has changed, and they have leverage that they didn't have previously, and they know how to use it.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Mr. Kianza, is there anything you would like to add to that? I know I'm probably out of time.