Foreign Affairs Committee on April 15th, 2024

[Nola Kianza]

That is exactly the kind of policy we would like to have.

I would first like to stress one point, which is the issue of mentality. Africans do not feel that we are partners or that we are even showing any interest in them. It is on that point that we are asking our government to act.

For example, before coming here, I spoke with the chair of our board of directors, Benoît Lasalle, who has been in Africa for a long time. He suggested that I simply tell you that all we need is to let you try to understand.

What we need is precisely to establish organizations like that. Those are the conditions in which partnerships work and we will see companies doing business together.

I quite like the Quebec model. We are a partner of Quebec's ministère des Relations internationales et de la Francophonie and also of Investissement Québec. Why? Because it is essential to be there, on the ground. We have to take our business models, and the things that are key to our success here, over there.

What is of prime importance today for the people there, and even for our Canadian companies, is to feel that the government is behind them and supports them. What do we mean when we talk about support? It means that the government has to have a clear policy that demonstrates its interest.

I will give you an example. We have heard about former prime minister Brian Mulroney and his commitment during the apartheid era. We will hear about Jean Chrétien and his commitment in 2002 to the New Partnership for Africa's Development. He supported Africans and he was there for them. Now, we have been completely erased. Africans do not even know where the Canadian government stands in this regard. In fact, I am not even here to speak from Africans' perspective; I speak from the perspective of Canadian companies, and even they do not know where the Canadian government stands.

Even when we work on development projects, we have no information. I have to go looking to find out who our trade commissioner is on the ground. I have to go looking even to find basic information about what is being done. The information is not being communicated. Why?

Information has to be conveyed. Information has to be given to businesses so they understand our country's involvement. That is what we need.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I understand that the first step would be to make information available. That is what you believe is the priority.

What form should it take? Do you have a specific recommendation for the committee on this point?

[Nola Kianza]

As my colleague Mr. Roberts said, there needs to be a comprehensive policy on Africa, a policy that is inclusive.

In 2022, I went to Egypt at the invitation of the Egyptian government. Over there, we joked about how Egypt is referred to as part of the Middle East and is differentiated from the rest, when it is actually doing business with Africa. The same is true of Morocco. I stopped a moment to think about that. There we were, already looking at how we could divide up trade, instead of having a comprehensive policy to indicate first that this region is of interest to us.

So that is the first thing to do: We have to say that we are interested.

After indicating our interest, we have to determine what we need to do. We need to have a policy and dedicate resources to it. Our policy has to say clearly that economic development is very important. Certainly we must not abandon development programs, but there has to be economic development alongside them. The policy to be put in place must therefore be very clear.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Could you tell us quickly, in 30 seconds, how you see that kind of policy being implemented? Does it require having more bureaus?

How do we deal with rapidly changing political situations? There have been several coups d'état on the continent. How are we to adapt to that? Obviously, we cannot control local politics, but we have to be able to protect the investments made by our businesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You have 20 seconds.

[Nola Kianza]

Agreed.

In connection with an upcoming conference in Egypt about African markets, I made some calls to our embassies, but they told me their budgets had been cut. That is an example. Our embassies and our trade commissioners cannot even function because their budgets have been cut. I spoke with a director general for Africa and she also told me she had no budget. You see, it is not taken seriously. There are not even budgets to help the trade commissioners who are already there. You can see that there is already a problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We'll now go to MP McPherson.

You have five minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for this interesting conversation, gentlemen.

What I'm hearing from all three of you is that Canada has not been serious about its engagement with the continent of Africa. This is not something that I'm putting just on the shoulders of this current government; this is something that we've seen for a number of different years.

You know, my colleague from the Conservatives asked where we should rank Africa, and I'm quite upset with that framing of it, because I think we can't be picking first, second and third. I don't like the idea of that.

One of my big concerns with the current approach that this government has is that they.... You talked about the need for an overarching policy. Well, in the last 12 months, we've seen it go from a strategy to a framework, and then at the last meeting, we were told that it's now an approach. This is a deeply unserious way to engage with the continent of Africa.

I don't understand it. I don't understand the cuts to ODA. I don't understand all of the things that we're seeing. You are all talking about why we need more investment and more attention in Africa, yet the current government is signalling that we can expect some serious cuts to Global Affairs Canada in the budget tomorrow. How do we convince the government of the importance of investing in a massive opportunity?

Also, could you speak a little bit about...? Mr. Black, you talked about Africa playing a role in the centre of world tensions. We know that China's in Africa. We know that Putin's in Africa. We're not, and that is so dangerous for global security as well.

We have, as I think we heard last week, 52 peacekeepers in the field right now. That's unacceptable. How do we convince the government that we need to do more? I know it's a tricky question.

Maybe I'll start with you, Mr. Black, and then I can invite your colleagues to comment.

[David Black]

There's a larger problem, which is that we need to recapture the sense that what we do matters in the world. If what we do matters in the world, then Africa has to be part of that calculation.

Too much of the time what we've been doing in foreign policy has been about sending signals for domestic political purposes. What we need is a kind of serious engagement with the issues that we are going to have to live with. They're collective action challenges. They're world order challenges.

Africa is at the centre of those calculations. We have the potential, and we have, in the past, periodically played a role as a kind of honest broker between particularly the western world and other parts of the world. That role is badly needed. Too much of the time I see Canadian governments taking a kind of flight to safety, going to places that feel most familiar rather than thinking about what we can do to try to help navigate what is going to be a very bumpy transition, I think, over the next 20 years.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Dr. Roberts, do you have anything you'd like to add to that?

[Christopher W. J. Roberts]

I'm not sure how we convince any particular government to do this other than, without a better overall policy, having a bigger bang for the buck even if you don't increase the resources. That's the way. Maybe that's how you sell it, because when you have a policy that says we're going to do X, Y and Z, and there are some guideposts, you don't have to increase the budget, but you might be more effective that way than by taking a shotgun approach or if there's no constituency that's supporting it. For everybody in the room, that would be my case. A strategy focuses resources so that you might be able to be more effective without extra resources.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Basically what you're saying is that we need a road map. We need a map of where we're going instead of one-off decisions.

Mr. Kianza, you spoke about two people stranded somewhere in the bowels of Global Affairs who were responsible for African trade relationships. Can you speak about what more the Canadian government could be doing with regard to that?

[Nola Kianza]

Yes. I think there are a number of things that are being done. As I said, the first thing is that we need to better coordinate the information. There are so many things that have been done out there, but they're not filtering through to the people who may need that information. I think the first thing that we need is well-coordinated information.

Number two, we need to have the mindset, and our mindset needs to be refocused. I think we need to recalibrate rather than just look at development, because right now everybody is focused on development when things are shifting.

When we are talking about partnership, partnership is about two people. One key ingredient in a partnership is communication, and with communication, you need to listen. Africans are asking for partnerships in economic development. They want to develop. I think we need to listen a little bit more. I think what the government needs to do is coordinate the information and put the resources into shifting the mindset.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Kianza.

We now go to Mr. Fast. You have three minutes for your questions.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Gentlemen, what I'm hearing from you and what I've heard from our NDP colleague as well is that right now Canada doesn't matter on the global stage and certainly not in Africa. We need to recapture Canada's standing on the global stage to the point where we can make the investments and have the engagement in places like Africa that would make a difference, a real difference.

Mr. Black, I don't want to misquote you, but I believe that you suggested that Africa has an economic upside greater than any other region. Did you say that?

[David Black]

Yes. It's economic, but it's also because, frankly, from where African countries have been historically, there is nowhere to go but up. It sounds a little crude, but clearly there is a growing population, and there are very rapid rates of economic growth. There is no other place that faces the same kinds of demographic opportunities that Africa presents. I think there is a tremendous opportunity in the African context.

One other thing, if I could just piggyback on what Chris said earlier.... You go ahead.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Yes, I have limited time.

[David Black]

Yes, you have the floor.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I want to go to Mr. Kianza.

How many trade agreements does Canada presently have with the 54 countries of Africa?

[Nola Kianza]

That's a good question, because, as I was saying, sometimes—

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Are there any?

[Nola Kianza]

I think we have a few; I think we have 20.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I'm talking about trade agreements, not FIPAs.

[Christopher W. J. Roberts]

For free trade agreements, no, we have zero.

[Nola Kianza]

No.