Foreign Affairs Committee on May 22nd, 2024

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We now go to Ms. McPherson.

You have three minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much. I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today and sharing their testimony with us.

I have to take a moment out of the committee time at this point to move a motion that I had brought forward some time ago. It is on a very important issue that I think this committee needs to deal with as urgently as possible.

It is with regard to the sales of arms and goods to Israel. Notice of the motion was first given on April 10. Would the members like me to read the motion, or are they aware of the content of the motion?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Everyone's aware.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

That, given the failure of Global Affairs Canada to produce the documents requested by this committee on February 12, 2024, and the letter to the committee from the Deputy Minister dated March 13, 2024, requesting further instruction, the chair instruct the clerk to publish the letter and annex received from Global Affairs Canada on Canada's arms exports to Israel on the public committee web page; that the committee instruct Global Affairs Canada to:

a) provide details on all current open export and brokering permits for military goods and technology to Israel, without redaction for commercial confidentiality, as the Committee requested in its motion of February 12, 2024;

b) provide details on all export or brokering permits for military goods and technology to Israel, whether open or expired, dating back to 2020, not 2006 as the Committee requested in its motion of February 12, 2024;

c) reissue the annex without redactions for commercial confidentiality, as the committee motion specified;

That these details be provided within 30 days of adoption of this motion; and

That, once received, these documents be made public on the committee website.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to call for a vote on this motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Oliphant, go ahead.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

We have two amendments that we'd like to make to this. I would normally do them separately, but out of respect for the witnesses, I will try to do them quickly, and if it's agreed, we could vote on them together, perhaps.

The first is that in the first line, the motion be amended by deleting the words “the failure of”, and then adding “has yet”, after “Global Affairs Canada” and before “to produce”, and by adding “in full” after “produce” and before “the documents”. So it would then read “That, given Global Affairs Canada has yet to produce in full the documents requested by this committee”. It is just acknowledging that we have not done it yet, but there's no desire not to do it.

The second amendment is, at the end of the motion, to delete the words, “these details”— I have it in writing for the clerk as well, and in French as well—and to insert the words “this information be provided on a continuing basis as it becomes available, with the first batch of information to be provided within 30 days”. Instead of just saying “these details”, it's to acknowledge that it will come in batches on a continual basis until all of it is given to us.

Finally, at the end of the motion, add the words “and that once the documents outlined in sections a through c”—meaning all of the documents—“of this motion are received, the committee's motion of February 12, 2024, be deemed completed”.

The last part of the motion would read, “That this information be provided on a continuing basis as it becomes available, with the first batch of information to be provided within 30 days of adoption of this motion, and that once received these documents be made public on the committee website and that once the documents outlined in sections a through c of this motion are received, the committee's motion of February 12, 2024, be deemed completed.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Is everyone clear on the three friendly amendments?

If it's okay, we'll do one vote on all three proposed changes.

Go ahead, Mr. Aboultaif.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

I just want quick clarification on the second amendment.

I don't want to take much time, but on “That these details be provided”.... First of all, it says, “as it becomes available, with the first batch of information to be provided within 30 days” of the adoption of this motion.

Which one comes first?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Oliphant.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

It means the information that's been requested will be provided on a continuing basis as it becomes available, with the first batch to be received within 30 days. We can't predict exactly, but it will not stop until everything has been received. The first batch will be within 30 days, and it will continue until they're all here.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Is that clear?

(Amendment agreed to)

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

It's unanimously adopted. Thank you very much.

We will now go back to the witnesses.

I apologize for that.

I'm afraid we have very limited time available. Going forward, each member will only have two minutes, so you essentially just get one minute in. I ask that everyone stick to the time limitations.

We'll start off with MP Epp.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I'll go right to Ms. Heines.

The World Food Programme has had some success in Namibia with efforts there. Why? What has been different in Namibia, where they have achieved a higher degree of food self-sufficiency?

[Edith Heines]

Namibia is an upper-middle-income country. In that way, it is definitely on a different level than a lot of other African countries. If you look at the levels of poverty and the systems that are there.... They are higher. When it comes to food production and self-sustainability, I'm not sure if they're doing so much better. I don't have the figures in my head, but they are very dependent on imports, as well. It's just that it's a more stable system. So far, poverty levels are lower.

The issue they're dealing with is this: There are still gaps between some groups, especially indigenous groups and others. What you need for that is.... Well, governance is an important part—leadership from the government.

To give you an example, I—

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I'm sorry, but my time is so limited. I'm going to thank you for that.

I'm going to ask one final question of Mr. Sultan.

Canada's agricultural systems actually benefit from climate change, but obviously the Sahel parts of Africa do not.

Would you agree that the negative effects of climate change could be more than compensated for with access to crop protection products, fertilizers and irrigation in those countries, for food production and greater resiliency?

[Benjamin Sultan]

I think the potential for increasing crop yield is probably greater than the negative effects of climate change. Even if it's likely that climate change will decrease, in fact, this increase of crop yield.... We have a greater potential to increase crop yield than we could expect negative impacts of crop yield.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We next go to Dr. Fry.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

We've been hearing from other witnesses that there are certain trends in Africa where things are getting better—that we need to look at economic development and technological development, etc. Yet, eight of the top 10 countries on the international rescue emergency watch list are in Africa, including Burkina Faso, Mali and Niger.

Why is west Africa having these particular problems? Why are they getting worse and it's becoming more abusive, etc.? What is it that we can do? What are the factors causing this in west Africa? What can Canada do to deal with this, especially in countries like Mali, because we are bilingual and can work in countries in Africa that are francophone?

This is for Mr. Diaw.

[Modou Diaw]

Thank you so much.

Definitely, we have lots of African countries where things are definitely getting better. I'm calling from Senegal, where we've just completed a very successful democratic election and transition. I can name several as examples, but we know that the three Sahelian countries you named were already very vulnerable, as I said earlier, in terms of poverty, economic issues and long-lasting conflict.

During the last year, with this terrorist armed group that's started controlling some parts of this area, the response provided was not adequate. This gave space to this terrorist group to gain more control.

If you add to that the very high level of poverty.... I always say the main cause of this crisis is poverty. For example, if young people do not have jobs, education or professional skills, and there are opportunities to have weapons, they can just join an armed group, and maybe—

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Excuse me. I don't have much time. I just want to ask you one—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

In fact, Dr. Fry, you're over already.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

I don't have any time. Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you. I'm terribly sorry about that.

We'll now go to Mr. Bergeron for two minutes, please.