Foreign Affairs Committee on May 27th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Diendéré, we're considerably over time. I will have to cut you off.

MP McPherson, you have two minutes, please.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to follow up on a question from my colleague Mr. Hoback that I don't think got answered. It was in terms of the time frame of when we can expect to have some sort of road map, whether that be a strategy like the Indo-Pacific strategy or whether that be a framework or approach or whatever. I'm wondering when we can expect to have something formalized.

Perhaps, Mr. Diendéré, I could ask you first. Do you have a timeline for when that might be ready?

[Ben Marc Diendéré]

It could be very pretentious for me to say that it will be in one month or two months or something, but I'm pretty sure the team is working very hard to have something very soon. We are already a part of the discussion right now.

I would like to be able to tell you it will be tomorrow or in one month or three months, but I have confidence in the team working on it because they are very familiar with the requirements.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Realistically, then, we're looking at months, not years. Of course, we were first informed that there would be this policy with.... You know, it's been over a year since we were first told that there would be a framework or a strategy in place, but if you say months, then that's what we'll go with.

Mr. Thornley, when I asked you a question in my last round, you talked about FinDev and the value of some of the projects that are being done by FinDev. Now, I have a big concern with FinDev, because I don't believe they have the same accountability mechanisms that we see with regard to, for example, development projects. What we expect a small or medium organization to provide in terms of accountability for Global Affairs projects is not the same for FinDev.

Can you comment on that?

[Christopher Thornley]

I'm not really an expert on FinDev's accountability structure, but I guess, as a semi-autonomous organization, it would not be the same as a development project. But what—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

That's even though they are taking development dollars to do their work.

[Christopher Thornley]

Possibly.

I think in Africa and with some African countries, whether FinDev is a solution or others, you need greater flexibility. I also talked about EDC de-risking and allowing more money to flow to support commercial transactions.

I won't really answer your question directly. I apologize for that. I don't know about the direct accountability structure for FinDev.

In a country like Kenya, there is a need for the more traditional aid that we have. We also need more innovative financing and support structures where we work in partnership to develop an economy that has a lot of innovation built into it.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Absolutely. I would just suggest—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm afraid we're 40 seconds over time.

Thank you.

Next, we go to Mr. Chong.

You have four minutes, sir.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Ambassador Callan indicated that it's become a lot more competitive in Africa and, in addition to that, that we need to therefore more effectively use our resources to further our interests and our values.

High Commissioner Thornley built on that by saying that we should not just view Africa as a recipient of international aid, but also as a region that is willing to work with Canada on areas such as security and defence, and on issues such as two-way trade investments.

My question is in that framework.

Just last week, an Aframax tanker filled up with oil from the TMX pipeline—with 550,000 barrels of oil in a single tanker. It is the first shipment that is headed toward China. It's a shipment of 550,000 barrels.

I think it was Ambassador Diendéré who mentioned in his opening statement that this year Africa will be the second fastest-growing region after Asia this year. When I put all of that together, it seems to me that Africa has an immense need for oil and gas in the coming decade.

Currently, Africa is a net exporter of oil. It produces about seven million barrels of oil a day. It consumes about four million barrels. It has a net export of about three million barrels. If Africa is to catch up with the rest of the world economically, it seems to me that it would at least catch up to the developing world's standard, which is three times the oil consumption that it currently has. It only consumes about a third of the oil per capita compared to the developing world. That would mean that it would grow from about four million barrels of oil a day to 12 million barrels, thereby becoming a net energy importer.

My question for all three witnesses is, what discussions you have had about exporting Canadian energy, particularly oil and liquefied natural gas, to Africa?

What potential is there for that region of the world to be a destination for Canadian energy exports?

[Christopher Thornley]

I could jump in first.

Thank you very much. It's a really interesting observation.

My last posting was as high commissioner to Nigeria. I saw the tremendous amount of oil production that they have there and the fact that there's very little value added. I think that speaks more generally to an area where Canada can work closely with African countries that have a multitude of natural resources—a wealth of it—but do not add value for their own use.

In Nigeria, for example, the richest man in Africa, Aliko Dangote, is building one of the biggest refineries in the world. I think it will be the biggest refinery, which could be a game changer.

There are so many unknowns around that, including governance. If you have countries that, for example, are weak in the rule of law and where corruption is heavy, this is fraud. It's very difficult.

The other observation I would make with regard to our production of oil and gas as a potential export is that we're seeing African countries leapfrog. That word was used previously.

About 90% of the grid in Kenya is from renewables, with geothermal, solar, etc. It'll be 100% in a few years. I think that, along with protecting our interests and the potential exports of Canadian resources, we have to think about supporting the green growth that is taking place on the African continent and encouraging that kind of development. There is a lot of Canadian involvement in those kinds of projects.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to MP Chatel for the last question. Mrs. Chatel, you have four minutes.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to pick up where I left off. I wanted to ask you to give me your answer in writing, but now I have the chance to have another turn to speak, so you can give it to me in person.

Do you have concrete examples of companies that it would be worthwhile to develop, concrete examples of Canadian businesses that are already making a noteworthy difference in the major sectors referred to in Agenda 2063?

Mr. Callan can speak first, and Mr. Thornley can answer afterward.

[Michael Callan]

Absolutely. There are many examples to choose from. Staying with the agricultural sector, it makes up the vast majority of our exports across north Africa, and, certainly, Algeria, as well. One special thing about how we export is the way we do it, and the relationship we develop. It's less of a commercial transaction where we just make a sale and move on; it's an exchange and partnership. There's some knowledge transfer. There's some governance training that comes with it, and it's something that really distinguishes our approach.

Even if other companies can sell at a cheaper price, the quality of the products we provide and that sense of partnership and accompaniment over the medium term that we provide to help the Algerian government develop its own competencies in that same sector are examples that I've seen of Canadian businesses really distinguishing themselves and bringing pride to Canada as they do it.

[Christopher Thornley]

If you want specifics, I can name a few off the top of my head, We have a Canadian company here, Solar Panda, that's doing great work on solar panels. It's doing extremely well. It had some ups and downs on the energy side in west Africa, as well as central Africa and the DRC. Manitoba Hydro International was actually running the transmission grid in Nigeria for some time. It had to deal with a lot of governance and corruption issues, which is always a challenge, but it stuck with it. Cold Water International does a lot of work, as the name suggests, in water management in other areas.

The CPCS, which is a transportation consulting company, works with governments throughout Africa in developing master plans, both in terms of transportation and urban development and mining companies. The name keeps changing, but there's an organization called CESO, Canadian Executive Service Overseas, where Canadian business people go and provide short-term consulting. That's actually funded through our development programming, and others where we provide assistance through our technical transfer programs. We embed experts, for example, in government ministries here to help them develop their various planning processes and economic development.

[Christopher Thornley]

That's just a quick list.

Thank you.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I know you are very busy, but if you have the time, would you be able to provide us with a list of the ten biggest sectors, such as agriculture, energy, education, infrastructure and climate change, for example, where you have seen a contribution by Canadian companies? I don't want to pressure you, but it would be useful for us to have that information. It would add value to the study.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Be very brief, because we're over time.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Excuse me, Mr. Chair, but it would be good if we could get that answer in writing to include in our report. Isn't that a good idea?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

That's brilliant. Thank you, MP Chatel.

That concludes our questions from the members.

Allow me to take this opportunity to thank you all. I know it's particularly late in your time zone, but we're truly grateful for your time, your insights and expertise.

Thank you all very much.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Each one of us, as MPs, in our role as an employer is actually exempt from the Employment Standards Act in relation to the hours we put on our staff members. In that light, this committee passed some time ago a desire to have our Library of Parliament reports circulated 48 hours in advance, and I note that this meeting's report came out at four minutes to four on Friday.

On behalf of the staff, whom we all appreciate, I believe the 48 hours' notice was 48 business hours, not 48 running time hours—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Fair enough.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Therefore, if possible, could we have the reference materials for our meetings in a more timely fashion?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Absolutely. We will make a note of that. We'll discuss that with the clerk. We'll make every effort to make sure that is the case going forward.

At this point, allow me to thank Ambassador Diendéré, Ambassador Callan and High Commissioner Thornley. We're very grateful for your attendance here today.

[An hon. member]

After midnight.