Foreign Affairs Committee on June 5th, 2024

[Dr. Shahram Kholdi]

In the interest of time, sir, I should say that whatever information we have is never enough. They have shown from the time that everything was analog in the sixties and seventies, to the eighties and nineties, when everybody was using facsimiles, to the present date, that they've been adapting themselves. What we need is a sustainable effort in tracking these adaptation measures.

We should not forget that these Revolutionary Guard commanders, especially the ones who started from Lebanon, have second and third wives there. They have families there. You cannot sometimes tell who is really Lebanese and who is really Iranian. They have done the same thing in Syria as well.

What is imperative is that the respective commission in British Columbia, that was assigned by the Government of British Columbia, reported that the Hezbollah of Lebanon has been working with the El Chapo cartel to launder money in British Columbia. Hezbollah doesn't do anything without coordination, prior coordination, with the Revolutionary Guards. If they are here, not only are they active through the diaspora community and some of the relatives they have here; they are also doing business through the Latin American cartel as well.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Dr. Taleblu, or Mr. Taleblu, the time for diplomacy is over. We need to get serious about fighting. The IRGC are ideological. They're not going to stop at any point. They will continue to do what they do. They have a lot of patience and they have a lot of power. Isn't it time to start fighting that seriously in Canada?

[Behnam Taleblu]

Yes, sir. I wholeheartedly agree with that statement.

Thank you for the honorary promotion to doctor, but alas, I don't have a Ph.D.

In essence, yes, if Canada is not going to use legal authorities like a proscription, and political authorities like a proscription, to begin to contest the illicit presence of this global terrorist organization on its own soil, then it really leaves a huge capabilities gap and renders one, pushes one, into a worse footing to deal with transnational repression, terrorism, drug smuggling, arms proliferation and everything else that Canadian officials have been concerned about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You have 20 seconds.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Okay.

Finally, Mr. Taleblu, do you believe we have enough information in Canada about this organization and about the depth of its network in Canada?

[Behnam Taleblu]

We certainly have enough information to make a public call for the proscription. I say that as an American who also has an interest in having a more unified North American policy towards this group. But we need more information on the breadth and the depth of its other illicit activities that haven't made themselves known in the good news and articles that, for instance, Shahram Kholdi's reporting has revealed.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much.

We will go to MP Oliphant for four minutes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I think I'll begin by paraphrasing Professor Raboudi's opening comments that there is no tolerance and there is in fact disgust for the actions of the regime as well as the IRGC. I think we are united on that. We may be looking at differences in the way we approach that, but I think we are united in the condemnation of the regime.

[Noomane Raboudi]

There is no doubt about that.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Professor Kholdi, I'm wondering if you could describe either the organizational or the political differences that could exist between the regime and IRGC. Is there any daylight between the two?

[Dr. Shahram Kholdi]

Absolutely not, sir.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Okay.

At the end of your testimony, you said that the IRGC was indeed a state supporter of terrorism.

[Dr. Shahram Kholdi]

They themselves brag about it in their public interviews, as the commanders. I can bring for you a litany of evidence that is available in the official agencies of the IRGC.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

There is no daylight between the IRGC and the regime.

Canada in 2012, under the previous regime, listed the Iranian Republic as a state supporter of terrorism. That's been reaffirmed at the biannual review every year. We have, in fact, decreed that it is a state sponsor. We have decreed that the Quds group is a terrorist organization. We have put in sanctions limiting and immigration measures limiting.

Professor Raboudi, while you have expressed your disdain and condemnation of the IRGC, you were talking about the timing or the appropriateness of listing them as a terrorist organization. How many countries in the world among our allies—NATO allies, European allies—have listed the IRGC as a terrorist organization?

[Noomane Raboudi]

[Technical difficulty—Editor] countries, especially in the Middle East, there is hesitation. In the Middle East, as you know, even in the Sunni space there is division. The regime is saying something and the population is saying another thing.

As I told you and as I want you to understand, it's not the fact that I'm denying what all my colleagues have said. Everything that was said is true. The problem is the timing and what is happening around the Middle East and the way in which the Muslim world is now perceiving Canada. When I said what I said, I was talking about the political incidents that such a decision, taken now, could have in the Muslim world. It will associate us, as a country, with what is happening there. It will facilitate the propaganda of the regime. They are very gifted, very gifted, in propaganda.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Our Parliament has been clear that we view the IRGC as a terrorist organization. The European Parliament has said the same.

[Noomane Raboudi]

Yes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

However, the move to list them as a terrorist organization has other complications, I understand. I've looked at them domestically and the impact on some Iranian Canadians' lives. You're also bringing up the geopolitical impact of doing that.

Would it be best to do that in concert with allies, or how would we do that? This is not a new problem. This has gone on for 30 years. We've had previous governments that have had to deal with this sensitively to try to figure out the best way to protect Canadians of Iranian background, to send a message to Iran and to defeat their external activities and Hezbollah—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Oliphant, you're over the four-minute mark.

[Noomane Raboudi]

Sorry. I will just—

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

If you could respond in writing to us at some point, I think it would be very helpful.

In fact, if any of the witnesses could respond in writing to that particular question of the sensitivities that we have as MPs who want to state a strong position on the IRGC by looking at the possible problems of doing that, and when the best time is to do it, that might be helpful for us.

[Noomane Raboudi]

I think we have to wait—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We would be grateful if you actually did send us your comments and your response to MP Oliphant's question, because we have very limited time.

Mr. Bergeron, we will turn to you, sir, for four minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank the witnesses.

I'll now turn to you, Mr. Raboudi. My question is quite simple. Do you think that the list of terrorist entities has any relevance?