Evidence of meeting #131 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk  Mr. Jacques Maziade
Superintendent Denis Beaudoin  Director General, Federal Policing, National Security, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Vasken Khabayan  Acting Executive Director, Sanctions Policy, and Sanctions Outreach, Compliance & Enforcement, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre (Sacha) Vassiliev

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

I do, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

Our amendment is this:

That Bill C-353, in Clause 21, be amended by deleting lines 26 to 30 on page 11.

The rationale for that is that we think it is important that the section authorizing monetary rewards for information leading to the release or repatriation of hostages or detained individuals be removed.

We spoke to experts from organizations like Amnesty International and the International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group, and they identified some serious concerns that this approach, despite its goals, could inadvertently incentivize hostage-taking. Bad actors may orchestrate hostage situations to extract payments.

In our last meeting, witness Lara Symons from Hostage International also raised concerns about individuals taking advantage of monetary rewards while being complicit in the hostage-taking itself. This unintended consequence has been observed in other contexts in which reward systems have been implemented, ultimately undermining international human rights obligations and the rule of law.

UN experts have raised similar alarms about the U.S. rewards for justice program, which this section was modelled after. The U.S. program has been criticized for violating human rights by undermining due process and encouraging actions that can lead to abuses.

UN special rapporteur Alena Douhan explained that offering monetary rewards can lead to forced co-operation, denial of due process and even violations of fundamental rights, such as freedom of movement and the right to work.

It's for that rationale that we would like to bring forward this amendment.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you, Madam McPherson.

MP Oliphant, go ahead.

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

While I appreciate the sentiment of the danger of that particular clause in the amendment, both those witnesses who were referred to by Ms. McPherson also stated that, in its entirety, the legislation was both dangerous and unnecessary.

If we go through the actual testimony from both Ms. Symons of Hostage International and Mr. Tim McSorley of the International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group, we see that they were very clear that there was no necessity for this bill under legislation and that it also had many dangers.

For the precise reason that I listened to the witnesses who were cited, we'll be voting against this amendment.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you, Mr. Oliphant.

Now we'll put the amendment to a vote for a recorded division, please.

(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2)

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

We will have a recorded vote to see if it carries.

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

I'd like to speak, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Go ahead, Mr. Bergeron.

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Mr. Chair, I think it's important to point out that all my votes so far have been to send a message, I hope, to the government that not everything works like clockwork in terms of how hostage-taking is handled. Once again, I thank Ms. Lantsman for bringing this issue to the attention of the House and sparking a debate that I think is extremely healthy and salutary.

However, I share Mr. Oliphant's view that the bill is complex and suffers from significant shortcomings. I will therefore be voting against section 21, the wording of which has been retained.

I will probably vote against other provisions, depending on the outcome of the votes on the amendments that will be proposed. However, I want to make it clear that, in the end, even if Ms. Lantsman's bill is not adopted by this committee, it is imperative that the government heed the message sent to it by the opposition political parties, which represent—perhaps needless to say, but I think it is sometimes worthwhile—the majority of the population.

As a result, I hope that, whatever the content of the report on the bill that the committee will present to the House—I don't want to presume the outcome of the study of this bill—and whatever happens, the government understands that everything can't simply continue notwithstanding.

Changes are going to have to be made in the way things are done, in order to take into account the concerns that have been expressed by Ms. Lantsman, by some of the witnesses and by the MPs who have spoken during the study, whether in the House or in committee.

Thank you, Mr. Chair

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

We will now proceed with the vote.

(Clause 21 negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

(Clause 22 agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

We will now proceed with—

Noon

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I have a point of order.

I'm going to try, and Mr. Bergeron may have a concern over this, to apply the vote from clause 22 to clauses 23 through to 27.

Some hon. members

No.

Noon

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Okay. We'll do each one individually. That's fine.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

We will now go to a recorded vote on clause 23.

(Clause 23 agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

(Clause 24 agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

(Clause 25 agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

(On clause 26)

Go ahead, Ms. McPherson.

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I believe that clause 26 should be defeated, and I want to speak to it a little bit.

I believe that the provision creates more problems than it solves. I think it's necessary for this committee to vote down this clause.

I don't agree with offering permanent residency as an incentive for sharing information with the government. It creates a dangerous precedent. There are serious concerns about its potential to encourage false or unreliable claims. It also risks undermining the integrity of Canada's immigration system and could inadvertently create incentives for actions that don't address the root cause of hostage-taking.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you for that.

Would anyone else like to speak to clause 26?

(Clause 26 negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

(Clause 27 agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Now we will go to the short title of the bill. Shall the short title carry?

Do we want to do that on division as well?

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

We'd be happy to vote against the next three. The bill is a seriously flawed bill. We don't care about the short title, the preamble and the title, so if you want to accept them on division, we'll accept those three on division.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

You want to accept those on division. Okay.

Shall the short title carry?

Some hon. members

On division.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Shall the preamble carry?

Some hon. members

On division.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Shall the title carry?

Some hon. members

On division.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you.

Now, shall the bill as amended carry? We will have a recorded division, please.

(Bill C-353 as amended negatived: nays 7; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Shall the chair report the bill as amended to the House?