Foreign Affairs Committee on May 5th, 2022

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Welcome to meeting number 18 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Pursuant to the motion adopted on April 25, the committee is meeting with the delegation from the Central Tibetan Administration.

As always, interpretation is available through the globe icon at the bottom of your screen. For members participating in person, keep in mind the Board of International Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind all participants in this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. As a reminder, all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses and would like to thank them for taking the time to be here with us today.

At the table, we have Sikyong Penpa Tsering, president of the Central Tibetan Administration; the Venerable Tenzin Rabgyal, abbot of the Panchen Lama monastery; and Dr. Namgyal Choedup, representative of His Holiness the Dalai Lama at the Office of Tibet in Washington.

I'd like to recognize that we also have several other members of the delegation in our audience today, and I thank them as well.

Sikyong, I would like to turn the floor over to you for five minutes for your opening statement. Please proceed.

[Penpa Tsering, Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration]

Thank you very much, honourable Chair and honourable members of the Standing Committee of Foreign Affairs.

Thank you very much for this opportunity to present the case of Panchen Rinpoche, and the status of Tibet and our analysis of the situation that concerns Tibet.

Before I hand over the floor to my colleague, Zeekgyab Rinpoche, who is the abbot of the Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, the traditional seat of the Panchen Lamas through many centuries, I would like to say that this is a representative case of many other Tibetans who also suffer the same fate. Panchen Rinpoche's case is one of forced disappearance. Even 27 years after his disappearance or abduction by the Government of China, we still don't know whether he's alive or not. The Chinese government only says that he's hale and hearty, and he doesn't want to be disturbed. At least if there were some evidence that he is alive or not, that would soothing for the Tibetans.

We know that this is a political decision by the Chinese government, because this also concerns the reincarnation of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. There is reciprocal recognition of reincarnation between His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lamas.

I personally feel that China made a big mistake, a tactical mistake, by not recognizing Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, the young boy who was recognized by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. If China had done that, they would have Gedhun Choekyi Nyima under their control as of today, not the boy selected by the Chinese government and not recognized by the Tibetan people.

Even now, if you go to Lhasa, you will not see a picture of the Chinese-selected Panchen Lama. You will see only the picture of the 10th Panchen Lama. That is symbolic of Tibetans' non-recognition of China's selection of the Panchen Lama.

We know for a fact that, if he is alive, he has not been given any religious training to take on his traditional religious leadership next to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, thereby incapacitating him in every way. Even if he's alive and let free in the future, they've made sure that he will not be able to perform his religious duties, deprived of his traditional religious teachings.

Before I go over to other issues, I would request the chair to allow Zeekgyab Rinpoche, the abbot of Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, to present the case for Panchen Lama. After that, if the chair allows, I will touch on other issues that concern the issue of Tibet or the Sino-Tibetan conflict.

Chair, thank you again for the opportunity.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Please proceed, sir.

[Tenzin Rabgyal, Abbot of the Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, Central Tibetan Administration]

[Witness spoke in Tibetan, interpreted as follows:]

Tashi delek to everyone.

As the abbot of the Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, I would like to take this opportunity today to make some fervent appeals to the Canadian government on behalf of the millions of disciples of His Holiness the Panchen Lama in Canada, Tibet, the Himalayan regions, etc. I would also like to address this appeal to the followers of Tibetan Buddhism throughout the world, as well as the advocates of human rights, religious freedom and the rights of the child.

Currently, we see the Chinese government undertaking ruthless and restrictive policies in Tibet. The situation is worsening day by day. We see human rights being trampled, and religious freedom and the rights of the child being denied. Those Tibetans who disagree with the Chinese government are being arbitrarily detained, and many are being disappeared.

Today, I would like to explain this situation in Tibet in the context of the disappearance of an eminent spiritual leader, the 11th Panchen Lama, Gedhun Choekyi Nyima.

In 1989, the 10th Panchen Lama died suddenly and mysteriously while in the town of Shigatse in Tibet, where our main Tashi Lhunpo Monastery is located. Subsequently, as per Tibetan Buddhist convention, his Holiness the Dalai Lama, announced, on May 14, 1995, his recognition of Gedhun Choekyi Nyima from Nagchu in Tibet as the unmistaken reincarnation. This was also in accordance with the historical tradition of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, referred to as the father and son, being involved with the recognition of each other as well as in their teacher-student relationship.

However, sadly, three days after the announcement, on May 17, 1995, the Chinese authorities detained the less than six years old Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, his parents and entourage. They have not been seen since then, and 27 years have passed.

To make matters worse, later in 1995, the Chinese government interfered in our religious process and forcefully appointed a child by the name of Gyaltsen Norbu as the fake 11th Panchen Lama. Since then, he has been used as a political tool by the Chinese government.

Therefore, with great concern, I would like to make the following five appeals to the Canadian Parliament and the administration.

First, I urge the Canadian Parliament to pass a motion urging the Canadian government to mandate the ambassador to China to meet with the 11th Panchen Lama and ascertain his whereabouts and well-being.

Second, I urge the Canadian government to honour the 11th Panchen Lama with an award recognizing him as a victim of enforced disappearance for 27 years, and as someone who has been denied his human rights, religious freedom, the rights of a child and other fundamental rights of movement, residency and action.

Third, in order to enable his early release and as a way to draw attention to his situation, I urge the Canadian Parliament to observe the birthday of the 11th Panchen Lama.

Fourth, I also appeal to the Canadian government to actively call for the release of Chadrel Rinpoche, a lama of the Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, who was the head of the search committee for the 11th Panchen Lama, as well as many other Tibetan political prisoners.

On account of the dire situation inside Tibet, Tibetans have been resorting to acts of self-immolations, the latest being a 25-year-old Tibetan singer, Tsewang Norbu, on February 25, and an 81-year-old man, Taphun, on March 27, this year. At least 157 Tibetans have sacrificed their most-cherished lives in order to draw the attention of the international community, including the United Nations, to the critical situation in Tibet. Therefore, I urge the Canadian government to respond positively to their plea.

Fifth, the aspiration of the Tibetans in Tibet is for His Holiness the Dalai Lama to be able to return to Tibet at the earliest. Therefore, I urge the Canadian government to concede to taking concrete initiatives to support His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the Central Tibetan Administration to enable the resolution of Sino-Tibetan conflict through the mutually beneficial middle-way approach.

The Canadian people and government have been consistently supporting the Tibetan people, so I take this opportunity to express my sincere gratitude. The five-point appeal I have made today is in one way also connected to the well-being of the several million believers and connected to the democratic rights of individuals.

I have firm belief that the Canadian government will consider the reality of the Tibetan situation, particularly on the issue of Panchen Lama, and consider my appeals positively.

Finally, may peace prevail on earth. Thank you all very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you very much for your profound opening submission.

We have a number of members of Parliament who will have questions for you now, so we're going to proceed.

First up is MP Garnett Genuis for six minutes.

Please proceed, sir.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

It's such an honour to be with you today. Thank you for joining us.

When I'd been a member of Parliament for only a few months, I had the opportunity to meet with His Holiness in Dharamshala. I didn't know very much about the Tibetan struggle at that time, but that meeting and subsequent conversations have been an inspiration to me, in particular the way in which Tibetan people who have been the victims of such extraordinary injustice respond with love, goodwill and a desire for peace and reconciliation. I find that personally inspirational, and it's I think a key feature of what has sustained such support for the Tibetan cause.

Be assured of my continuing support. We take note of the important points and suggestions made with respect to the Panchen Lama, and I assure you that I will continue to advocate for his release and for the Government of Canada to be actively engaged. We'll review the specific suggestions that you made.

I want to share that our party has advocated on a number of points that are of particular importance around religious freedom. One is that we've consistently advocated for the reopening of the office of religious freedom as a real centre of excellence and a focal point for advocating for religious freedom around the world. We see various ways in which the Chinese government is attacking the religious freedom of Tibetans and of other communities in China.

We also proposed in the last election to have a publicly published list of prisoners of conscience of particular concern as a way of highlighting some of these ongoing cases.

It's great to hear the Tibetan language being spoken. One key feature of the repression that we see is the attack on language and the fact that young people in Tibet now are forced into schools where the language of instruction is not their own language.

To start off my questions, I wonder if you could speak specifically to the issue of language and education in Tibet and concerns about the attacks on the Tibetan language.

[Penpa Tsering]

On the issue of language, I want to inform this committee that our language comes from India. It has nothing to do with Chinese language. The alphabet of Tibetan language is ka kha ga nga; in Hindi, it's ka kha ga gha nga. It's the same language that comes from India. Our religion also comes from India.

With regard to language, during Mao Zedong's time, they had to use Tibetan language. There was no other way, because Tibetans didn't speak the Chinese language. To spread propaganda, they used the Tibetan language. However, during the Cultural Revolution a lot of things were destroyed during the 10 years from 1966 to 1976. Even before that, the previous Panchen Lama, the 10th Panchen Lama, submitted a 70,000-character report to the Chinese government, as early as 1962, speaking about the destruction of the Tibetan language and religious heritage in Tibet after the Communist invasion of Tibet.

There was a little freedom when Deng Xiaoping, came into power and Hu Yaobang also visited Tibet. The former Panchen Rinpoche was also released. The Panchen Rinpoche was always a very outspoken personality, a leader of Tibetans, who did not fear persecution, even though he was under house arrest for many years and had been through very repressive actions by the Chinese government, including putting a hat on his head and being criticized by his own people, shaming him during those periods. However, after he was released, he played a very important role in getting language, religion and culture back on track in Tibet. Unfortunately, he died under very mysterious circumstances in 1989.

When Hu Jintao took over as party secretary, he imposed martial law and there was much more control in Tibet. When Hu Jintao came in as President of China, in those days he even named His Holiness as a wolf in monk's clothing. That was the kind of rhetoric that was being used during his time.

When Hu Jintao took over as the President of China, then he introduced dual language. That was still okay, because you have to learn other languages, but when Xi Jinping came into power, it's now one nation, one language, one culture.

Under this policy, the Chinese Community Party is striking at the very root of our identity, which is our language. Today the Chinese language has to be taught from the preschool Montessori level. The Tibetan language is reduced to just a study of the language. Even if you're proficient in the Tibetan language, it's very difficult to get jobs—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry, Sikyong. I need to jump in because of a constraint in my time.

Before my time wraps up, colleagues, there have been discussions—and I think this will be a matter of quick support—and we've been asked about our support for pushing for the resumption of dialogue. I would quickly like to seek the support of the committee for a motion that notice has been given for.

I move:

That the committee report to the House its call for the immediate resumption of Sino-Tibetan dialogue.

I'll yield my time after that.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis, for your motion.

Is there any debate on the motion? Mr. Oliphant has his hand up.

Please proceed.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Mr. Genuis for the motion. We are in agreement with the sentiment of the motion. It does build on something.... I'm looking at Mr. Bergeron as well, because it is very similar to a motion that we worked on a year and a half ago. He presented it in the House, attempting to get unanimous consent. It didn't have unanimous consent.

I think that, for some of the depth that was in the motion Mr. Bergeron put to the House, it may be helpful to add it to this motion. In that one, it called for “dialogue between representatives of the Tibetan people, His Holiness the Dalai Lama or his representatives, the Central Tibetan Administration and the government of the People's Republic of China with a view to enabling Tibet to exercise genuine autonomy within the framework of the Chinese constitution.”

I think it was a fuller statement, and it involved a number of parties. Mr. Virani was also helpful in shaping that motion. If we could move towards that motion, I think it would be a better understanding, because a lot of people just won't know what the “middle way” is or what something is... I think that motion we worked on was maybe at the Canada-China committee, not the foreign affairs committee, if I'm correct.

I was going to do this later. I thought this would come up later in the meeting, so I haven't had time to write that out as an amendment, but you're kind of getting the point. I printed off the unanimous consent motion that Mr. Bergeron presented last year.

My other concern is that, because I believe we will all be in agreement with it, I would hope that we could take the motion and issue a press release or a media release on this as a statement from our committee that we would do it. I suggest that instead of presenting it to the House because I want to move this quickly, I want to get it done, and I don't want to waste time in the House later if it comes back for concurrence and those kinds of things. I would like to give this out as a statement that we all agree on and present unanimity on it, especially after the testimony we've heard today.

I could read out that motion, if it's helpful. I have a copy of it as well, if that's helpful for the clerk. It's sort of amending it to read this, which I could read again if people wanted to hear it.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Perhaps you can give the wording to the clerk, and then we can have it sent out.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

We have Mr. Genuis on a point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I just wonder if there would be unanimous consent to adjourn debate on this for the time being if people want to do some wordsmithing, and then we can come back to it.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

That's not a point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm seeking unanimous consent, so it is a—

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Okay. Well, that was going to be my intervention. I think that out of respect for the witnesses we should do this later.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sure, yes.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

I'll recognize Ms. Bendayan.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was wondering if we could proceed with the questions the witnesses came here to answer and do this debate later in the meeting.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Yes, I think we should circle back to the wording of the motion towards the end of the meeting.

We have MP Arif Virani next, for six minutes of questions.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

In terms of clarifying my own position with respect to the Sino-Tibetan dialogue, I was in favour of it when it came before the Canada-China committee and I'm in favour of it at all times. It is something that is critical in terms of resuming, so let me be clear about that.

First of all, thu-chi che, katrin che.

Thank you for being here, Sikyong. Thank you, Rinpoche. It is very critical what you are talking about today, and we are very pleased to have you here at the committee providing this testimony.

On behalf of the thousands of Tibetan Canadians I represent, and on behalf of the thousands of Tibetan Canadians I've interacted with in this country, I want to talk to you first about the Panchen Lama. I think it should be clear to everyone that the Panchen Lama is not the heir to the throne of the Dalai Lama, but they work in conjunction. One recognizes the other's incarnation.

When we say that the Chinese have taken control of the Panchen Lama and forced him to disappear and named a replacement, they're trying to take control of the succession. In the event of the passing of His Holiness, they would attempt to control the reincarnation. That, to me, strikes at the core of what we are talking about when we talk about religious freedom. That is clearly what is at issue here.

You know that the Canadian government has been long-standing in its position about the whereabouts of the Panchen Lama, going back to 1995. In 1998, a thousand birthday cards were delivered by Canadian children to the Panchen Lama on what would have been approximately his ninth birthday. Even as recently as 2016-17, we were making formal representations in this regard. We will continue to do that as parliamentarians. I will continue to do that on behalf of my constituents, and I think everyone here in this committee will continue to speak to that issue.

Can you tell me, with respect to the succession issue, what you foresee as the dangers with respect to not identifying and locating the Panchen Lama and ascertaining his whereabouts? If that is not done immediately, what is the danger that this presents?

If you could respond in about 60 seconds, please, I have a few other questions.

[Penpa Tsering]

Even though there is a tradition of Panchen Lamas recognizing the Dalai Lama and Dalai Lamas recognizing the Panchen Lamas, the ultimate issue that relates with reincarnation concerns the person who is going to be reincarnated. The person who is going to be reincarnated leaves signs and messages that define where or when—to which family—the person will be born. Irrespective of whether the Panchen Lama is there or not, there will be a system in place that will be decided by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

We've been talking about the Sino-Tibetan dialogue, and I know that dialogue at one time was quite robust. In terms of my own readings, there were about nine different rounds of meetings between 2002 and 2010, and then an abrupt stop. Since 2010, the positions have hardened, the dialogue has ceased and, under Premier Xi, we know that it has hardened even further.

Can you tell us why it is important to address the Sino-Tibetan dialogue and a little bit more about the middle way? Everything I hear about the middle way reminds me of the Canadian federation and what we give to provinces with control over certain jurisdictions, yet it is constantly portrayed in propaganda exercises by the Chinese Communist Party as some sort of independence revolutionary movement. I do not think it is that.

Sikyong, can you address the nature of the middle-way approach and what is meant to be achieved under the Sino-Tibetan dialogue?

[Penpa Tsering]

With the permission of the chair, I would like to take a little more time on this because this is one of the most important issues that concerns us in the Sino-Tibet conflict.

Since 2010, there has been no traction whatsoever from the Chinese side. They stopped dialogue. In hindsight we know for a fact the reason they originally wanted to resume or start a dialogue in 2002 was mainly so that Tibetans would not protest at the coming out party of China that was the 2008 Olympics. Therefore, the dialogue went on for some time, but there was no concrete result out of that. Since 2010, it has stopped.

Therefore, as you all know, I took over the responsibility of Sikyong on May 27 last year. There was the pandemic and I could not travel to other countries, except to Italy and Switzerland last November.

This time, before coming here, we had a series of round table meetings with the French in Europe to understand the current situation in Ukraine and post-Ukraine implications for the world and the new world order that might emerge to see how Europeans would look at China under those circumstances. It was quite educational for me.

Then I went on to have other meetings. This time I visited the United States on the invitation of Speaker Pelosi. We have had a series of meetings with Under Secretary Uzra Zeya, who was appointed by the Biden administration not even one year after into coming into office at the level of undersecretary. Under the Obama administration it was an undersecretary position, but it went down to assistant secretary during the Trump administration and now it has been elevated back to undersecretary. She will very soon be visiting Dharamshala, after my return there, and will meet with His Holiness and see how our administration works.

She also helped organize a round table meeting with ambassadors, where the Canadian deputy chief of mission was also present. The idea was to see how like-minded countries could come together on the resumption of dialogue. Then we also met with Kurt Campbell of the National Security Council, who is responsible for the Indo-Pacific. We had a series of meeting at the Congress, including a very long meeting with Speaker Pelosi and ranking members of both the House Foreign Affairs Committee and the Senate foreign relations committee.

We feel that there should be a change in the narrative, because the Chinese propaganda and narrative are so strong that they make people believe Tibet has been part of China since time immemorial. China has the manpower and the resources to do that. People don't study Tibetan history.

I would like to note this book, Tibet Brief 20/20, written by Michael van Walt van Praag. His last assignment was as professor at Stanford. He's an expert on international law and the history of Tibet. Unfortunately, most of the sources of information for the western world regarding the history of Asia, particularly east Asia, come from Chinese sources.

What he did in this book over the last 10 years, working with about 70 experts from inner Asia, not just China but Japan, Russia, Mongolia, Uighur and central Asian countries, was to conclude that whether it's to do with the Mongolian order...and when says “Mongolian order”, our relations with China have been there from the seventh to ninth centuries. At that time, Tibet was a big empire, having conquered the Chinese capital, Xi'an, in those days up to Samarkand in Uzbekistan today. Tibet was a big empire. Then we had 400 years of disintegration. During those periods we had relations with the Mongols from 1220 onwards. Even the—