Foreign Affairs Committee on May 5th, 2022

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

I'm sorry to interrupt again.

Mr. Virani, you have the floor.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you very much.

Sikyong, I want to continue with a couple of points. One is just to preface the comment about Ambassador Barton's trip. He was definitely briefed by the Canada Tibet Committee. There are members of the Canada Tibet Committee here in the room. I think the more access we have, the better, to go in with eyes wide open into the region.

I want to go back to something that you started on—and I think Rabgyal Rinpoche also referenced it—about the immolations. One thing that I recollect from when Ambassador Barton came back and talked about Lhasa—and I want to raise this with you squarely—is that we've now had 157 people in the last 10 to 20 years who have immolated themselves.

Buddhism is a pacifist religion. It is really shocking that this is what it comes to for people to make a point. The ambassador mentioned things such as individuals who are security officials of the Chinese in Lhasa not just carrying guns but carrying fire extinguishers because they are so concerned about the potential for immolations.

Can you comment on the situation and how it has got to the stage that people are immolating so frequently? How does their desperation lead them to that situation?

[Penpa Tsering]

The two latest cases of self-immolation included a very young 25-year-old boy who was a singer and had a very promising career. He was born after the Cultural Revolution. He did not see culture. He did not witness culture. He only saw what the Chinese government is doing to Tibet and Tibetans today. That is evidence of the policies and programs that the Chinese government implements in Tibet, which do not help the Tibetans as a people and China as a nation.

There is a lot of frustration because you cannot voice your concerns. There is no freedom of thought. There is no freedom of speech. There is no freedom of movement. Your life is reduced to that of an animal. That is why they are forced to do this, even at 81 years old. You see a range of people committing self-immolation, hoping against hope that there will be some response from the Chinese or the international community.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Can I raise another issue that you mentioned in your opening statement, which were the environmental concerns? I know we've heard about this in Parliament. We had received, in the 42nd Parliament, His Holiness the Karmapa, who also talks a lot about Tibet as “the water tower of Asia” and how on the Tibetan high mountain plateau, the ice melting feeds as many as 10 of Asia's major rivers, from the Mekong to the Ganges, etc.

Can you explain how critical the situation is with respect to the environmental concerns on the Tibetan high mountain plateau? I understand there have also been recent repercussions against Tibetan environmental activists, who have also spoken out about its importance. They have faced repercussions from the People's Republic of China. Could you address that, please?

[Penpa Tsering]

It's not only Tibet when it comes to the plateau of Tibet, which is 12,000 feet above sea level on average. I think the next big thing is going to be water security in the region. All the downstream countries are facing a lot of problems because China uses Tibet's water as a tap. It has built so many dams. On the Mekong alone, before it flows into the next country, there are some 32 dams. When they let it flow, it causes flooding. Then if it dries up, they will stop it. Water security is going to be a huge problem. Some say this could lead to the third world war. Who knows?

Today we are political refugees, but in a few decades to come there might be so many more environmental refugees. About two billion people, directly or indirectly, depend on Tibet's water, the water that originates from the Tibetan Plateau.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

In my last 40 seconds here, could you just talk about building alliances on this goal of ensuring there's more accountability with China? We have the Taiwanese trade representative here. That is terrific. We've talked about the Uighurs. We could talk about Tiananmen. We can talk about issues like Hong Kong democracy dissenters.

How can we as parliamentarians help you gather alliances to put more of a focus on China and the human rights abuses we are seeing?

[Penpa Tsering]

It's very important that administrations work with administrations and parliamentarians work with parliamentarians to build alliances on your front. Then we will work with the Uighurs and the Mongols and the Hong Kongers to find common ground to face common challenges. The issues are different. The backgrounds are different. Despite that, we face the same opponent.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Congratulations on your recent election, Sikyong. Welcome to Canada on your first official visit.

Thu-chi che.

[Penpa Tsering]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you.

Now for the third round, just to save time to deal with the motion, we're going to go to four- and two-minute rounds. First up is Mr. Genuis.

You have the floor for four minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've really appreciated hearing from the witnesses. I know we're all subject to these time constraints.

I wonder if you could speak further about the environmental issues. It's interesting to me that some people have some misperception about the Government of China's environmental performance. I wonder if you could just share a bit more about how that misperception can be countered, recognizing the real threats to the environment that we're seeing in Tibet and the implications for the region.

[Penpa Tsering]

We in our prayers also say that Tibet is the heavenly abode, the land surrounded by snow mountains. The westerners starting calling Tibet “the roof of the world”. Asians started calling Tibet “the water tower of Asia”. Now the Chinese environmental scientists call Tibet the third pole, because Tibet has the largest number of glaciers and permafrost, which feed all these major rivers that flow into Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Burma, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam and into China itself. In China 50% of the water is polluted. Tibet is the only place that has pristine water and a pristine, fragile environment.

It's very important for the whole region that Tibet's environmental issues are addressed and ecological issues are taken care of. There should be more collaboration between the Chinese environmental scientists and international environmental scientists to come out with detailed, analytical studies of the environmental situation. That will help the whole region.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Sikyong. It might be worthwhile, next time you're in Canada, to have you meet with the environment committee. I know these issues are very important. We can pursue them further.

One issue we've been highlighting is concerns about foreign state-backed interference in Canada and other countries around the world, and the impact this has on the Tibetan community, the Uighur community and, really, Canadians of all backgrounds, who are raising concerns about human rights and aggressive actions by the Chinese government and by other foreign states.

Could you share your perspective on efforts by the Chinese government to influence events beyond its borders and the concerns that we're hearing specifically from Tibetan Canadians about those influences being present here in Canada?

[Penpa Tsering]

Transnational repression has become a term that was not there earlier. China always talks about Tibet and the Uighurs being domestic issues, internal affairs, where they don't want the international community to interfere. On the other hand, now it has made the United Front Work very proactive in the international community. This organization used to be responsible for creating problems among nationalities within China, but now it has extended its arms beyond China through transnational repression.

You have witnessed it here, in the case of Chemi Lhamo. It uses the students and scholars associations, through the consulates and the embassies. We really urge the Canadian government to protect your own people, your own citizens, when they face such repression. Whenever we have cases, we will definitely be reporting these to your authorities.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

I appreciate your mentioning the case of Chemi Lhamo. She was a graduate of the parliamentary internship program that we have here for Tibetan young people. I think many of us here participate in that program. It's great to see the contribution to Parliament and to so many other walks of life that are being made by Tibetan Canadians and all the things they go on to do. They advocate for the Tibetan cause, yes, but they also contribute to Canadian life in so many other ways.

Once again, I want to thank you for being here. I just recognize the contribution of the Tibetan Canadian community as well. Thanks.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Mr. McKay, you have the floor for four minutes.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

It's good to see you again, Sikyong.

I have two questions. The first question has to do with the comment you just made about China's spending more money on its internal security than it spends on its external security. I think we have some feel for the expenditures on external security, which is a massive amount of money. I'd be curious as to how much money is actually getting spent on internal security and where it is getting spent.

[Penpa Tsering]

I don't have the exact numbers right now. I would be happy to submit a report on this.

Much of the money is spent on state security, which has to do with the functions of the security apparatus in Tibet, with the United Front Work, with intelligence, with the surveillance systems that are placed in all of the monasteries and on individuals. All of that adds up to more money being spent in Tibet than in other regions of China, because it considers Tibet as always a very sensitive area. These are the areas it spends money on.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I think it was Henry Kissinger who said that nations only operate in their own interests. I would be curious to know how you would explain to Canadians on the street why they should care about what goes on in Tibet. Why is it in Canada's interest to pay attention to what is happening in Tibet and, for that matter, other regions in and around China?

These places are quite foreign to most Canadians, and in some instances Canadians would be hard-pressed to find Tibet on a map. Why should they care about what is obviously an egregious situation and only getting worse? Why is it in Canada's interest? Why is it in Canadians' interests to care about Tibet?

[Penpa Tsering]

Only when problems come to your door do you realize that it's happening. Otherwise, you feel it's too far away, but we all know about the interdependent nature of how we exist. Anything that happens in a small part of the world affects the larger community, the international community. It's not like before. Things are changing.

Then with trade, as I mentioned before, I tried to check the volume of trade between Canada and China. It's 25% of your exports that go to China and 77% being imported. China makes money out of this. It uses all of this money, again to repress its own people or to not follow international rules.

I think what is more important are Canadian values. If Canadian values have to be promoted internationally, then Canada has to work towards that, not within Canada but in the whole international community, to promote the values that you cherish.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I have an interest in forced labour. In fact, I tabled a bill on the floor of the House this week. I would be interested in your comments as to how much of the goods coming out of China, indeed out of Tibet, for that matter, are products of forced labour?

[Penpa Tsering]

We are doing a study on that. As soon as we've finished, we will be able to present it to you—in the near future.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

If you could, this committee would be very interested in that. I would be very interested in that.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Please submit that to the clerk when it's available.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for two minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On January 29, at a virtual meeting with several Tibetan associations in Canada, Dr. Namgyal Choedup, representative of the Central Tibetan Administration to North America, spoke to the importance of reaching out to Chinese students in Canada “as part of His Holiness Dalai Lama’s vision of building better understanding between the Chinese and Tibetan societies”.

Do you feel that Chinese students in Canada are aware of the situation in Tibet and that reaching out to them will truly build better understanding?

That question begs another.

Wouldn't those students risk coming under pressure from the authorities in the People's Republic of China?