Foreign Affairs Committee on May 5th, 2022

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Mr. Tsering, I'm sorry to interrupt. Out of fairness, we have so many members who want to ask questions. Perhaps you could continue with your explanation in concert with the questions from all the members. I want to make sure that everybody has a chance to get in. It's been over eight-minute rounds. We usually have six-minute rounds.

I'm going to move on to our next member of Parliament, MP Stéphane Bergeron, for his question.

Thank you.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You referred to the Tibetan language as the core of the Tibetan identity, so if you will allow me, I will speak in my own language, which is French. Please put on your earpiece in order to have simultaneous translation.

Mr. Chair, Mr. Tsering would like to finish answering Mr. Virani's question, if possible.

With your permission, I’d like him to give him the opportunity to do so.

[Penpa Tsering]

Thank you very much.

I won't go too much into the history. This book says that whether it's according to the Mongolian order or the Chinese order or the Manchu order or the Tibetan order, or as per international law today, Tibet has never been considered part of China.

Then we have another book written by a Chinese professor, Hon Shiang Lau, who is also now based in San Diego. He was a professor at the City University of Hong Kong. He studied the Manchu period. His study was based on the historical imperial records of the Manchu, which indicate that the Manchu never considered Tibet as part of China.

Therefore, the Chinese narrative to the international community is misleading, and now it is important that the countries recognize the historical independent status of Tibet. By that, I do not mean to say that we are going to change our position from the middle-way approach to independence, but when countries say that Tibet is part of the PRC, then you are going against international law. The one agreement that we have with China is the 1951 17-point agreement that was signed under duress after the invasion of Tibet in 1950, and that is illegal and unfair. On the other hand, when you say that Tibet is part of PRC, then you are telling the Chinese government that it can do whatever it wants with Tibet, inside Tibet, and we will not interfere in whatever it does.

On the other hand, countries also support negotiations between His Holiness the Dalai Lama's representative, or CTA leadership, with the Chinese government and we find this a contradiction, because there is no leverage for the middle-way approach. People don't realize that His Holiness has climbed down from independence to the middle-way approach, which is seeking autonomy for Tibet, for the Tibetan people to be able to preserve their language, culture, religion, way of life and their environment, which is also very important, not only for the Tibetans but also to the whole region.

Therefore, we urge governments to change their position if possible, and if it is not possible, to please not repeat this statement that Tibet is part of the PRC. When you do that, then you are kowtowing to the Chinese. You are listening to the command of the Chinese, and China respects only strength, not weakness. If countries want to be the pony, they'll ride you again and again and they will not respect you at all.

If you are able to stand up.... I request that you read this book, and the translation of the Chinese version will also be coming out soon. These are the latest books. We are not talking about Tibetans. His Holiness has always said that, when the Chinese put this precondition that His Holiness should say that Tibet is part of People's Republic of China, they also put the precondition that His Holiness should say Taiwan is part of China. His Holiness cannot represent the Taiwanese people. His Holiness gave the answer that I'm not a historian and let us leave history to historians. This is what historians are talking about—the history of Tibet.

But, His Holiness is very pragmatic. We look at the reality of the situation inside Tibet, and for us what is more important is the preservation of the very identity of the Tibetan people. Therefore, I urge governments, particularly the Canadian government, not to repeat the statement that Tibet is part of PRC, kowtowing to the Chinese government.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thanks.

Mr. Bergeron, you have just under two minutes left.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Tsering, a few moments ago, you mentioned Taiwan. I’d like to point out that we have the Taiwanese representative here in the room, in Ottawa.

Thank you for being with us, Mr. Chen.

Mr. Tsering, in August 2020, we welcomed your predecessor, Lobsang Sangay, to our committee. While Mr. Sangay was extremely critical of the People's Republic of China's actions towards Tibet and Hong Kong specifically, we were quite surprised by his optimistic remarks.

Building on discussions at the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations, I then went to the House and tabled the motion Mr. Oliphant just read to you. We felt some optimism on the Tibetan side at that time, but now I get the impression that optimism has faded to some extent.

Can you tell us what might have changed since we met with Mr. Sangay in August 2020 to make the optimism we felt in his words seemingly fade away?

[Penpa Tsering]

At that time, we were not really sure about Xi Jinping asking for a third term. Now he's asking for a third term and, unlike his predecessors, he has been consolidating all of his powers. It's a very dangerous threat. He likes to be called the core leader, comparable to Mao Zedong.

His new policies of “one country, one language, one culture” is striking at the very identity of not just the Tibetans but also the Uighurs. Even Cantonese-speaking Chinese people have to face that.

We find that these are very dangerous threats—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

I'm so sorry to interrupt again, but I want to clarify. To be fair to all members, it is Ms. McPherson's round and I want to make sure that everyone has a chance to ask you and hear from you about the very important information you have.

I'm going to turn the floor over to Ms. McPherson. She can decide if she wants you to continue with this answer, or to ask a different question. Thank you.

You have six minutes, Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all so much for being here today. It's a great honour. It's a pleasure to have all of the guests in the room with us today as well.

It would be rude of me not to ask you to, please, continue with your answer.

[Penpa Tsering]

These are the challenges we face with President Xi Jinping at the helm. We are not against multiculturalism and we are not against development, but when a majority community completely overwhelms a minority community, it leads to cultural genocide.

What is happening to the Uighurs is happening on an industrial scale. The present party secretary of the Uighurs was stationed in Tibet from 2011 to 2016. Tibet always used to be the testing ground for new policies. After testing these policies inside Tibet, he implemented them for the Uighurs. Therefore, the restrictions and the gridlock system.... When he was working in Tibet as the party secretary, the gridlock system that he introduced is so strong now that it's not possible for Tibetans to come out to protest. He controls the surveillance on the Tibetan people. It is so strong, and they use all kinds of modern technology to surveil monastic institutions and individuals.

You do not hear much about Tibetans being able to do anything except burn themselves, hoping against hope. One hundred and fifty-seven Tibetans have burned themselves, hoping against hope that the Chinese government will give some attention to their plight, or the international community will do something for them. Unfortunately, that is not forthcoming.

Under President Xi Jinping, things look very dire. Even hopes for negotiation in the immediate future seem to be remote.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

You spoke about the Uighurs. I was one of the members of the subcommittee in Canada that undertook a study on the situation of the Uighurs and found that there were examples of genocide, and that it was a genocide being perpetuated.

In 2021, the Canadian government imposed sanctions. I was wondering whether or not you think those were effective. Do you think they effectively helped the situation there? What more could Canada do in that situation that may also be applicable to the Tibetan situation?

[Penpa Tsering]

Whether the sanctions are effective or not, I think depends on the level of sanctions, because China is huge and the economy is huge. One thing that you have power over is your own people and businesses. You can definitely tell your businesses not to invest in Tibet or Uighur, where they are using forced labour, or those kinds of things.

However, imposing other sanctions on China, I don't know how effective that is, because they will have many other avenues to avoid the implications of those sanctions. You can definitely tell your business people not to invest in Uighur or Tibet.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I think we can do much more in this country on that front. There are certain pieces of legislation that have come forward from different individual members. The government has been slow to bring forward that legislation, so I'm hopeful that individual members will bring forward legislation that will be much more effective on that front.

Here is my final question. You spoke a bit about having a discussion with others, with the global community, about the situation in Ukraine and the impacts of that on how the situation in Tibet is perceived. I'd love to hear more about that if I could.

[Penpa Tsering]

We are still trying to learn from each other how the Chinese perceive the evolving crisis in Ukraine and what implications, post-Ukraine, it will have on Russia and its relations with China, and also what role China will play now, because every one of us knows that the Chinese are now translating what is going on in Chinese social media, and Chinese social media is very controlled by the state.

From what the state allows the people to speak about and what they're not allowed to speak about, it's very clear that the Chinese government supports Russia. I have a feeling that they have an understanding between themselves. There's a lot of talk about the Chinese not being very happy with Russia invading Ukraine even before the Olympics were over. It seems they had an agreement, but the Chinese are also very afraid of secondary sanctions from the west. We have to understand that we are not the butter all the time. We have a Tibetan saying, referring to the butter and the stone. You throw the stone at the butter, the butter melts. You throw the butter at the stone, the butter also loses.

With international trade in Canada, you export 25 billion dollars' worth of goods, but China imports more than 77 billion dollars' worth of goods. The trade imbalance is very stark. If there is a trade war, China will lose. It's not just one side. It is actually both ways.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

The second round will have five-minute rounds, and two-and-a-half-minute rounds.

MP Aboultaif, please proceed.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Good afternoon, and thank you for your visit today with your delegation.

Human rights violations are the number one issue being practised by China against the Tibet region and the people there, with all kinds of denials of fundamental rights, whether rights to freedom of expression, to beliefs, to practices or to freedom of movement. In this course of history, it seems like the stronger China gets, the more the violations increase against that specific region. That's definitely where the concern is, because that can escalate more, God forbid, to what we see now happening in Ukraine.

How do you see the future, moving forward, based on China getting stronger and getting more aggressive on the world stage, not just in the region but definitely in Tibet. You know, the geography is there. How do you see the future?

[Penpa Tsering]

I feel there is a lot of insecurity on the part of China. They are belligerent against India. They're keeping the hot spots going on in Taiwan and the South China Sea. I try to analyze the situation and understand the geopolitical and geostrategic issues as much as possible, but I see no other reason for them to do all this, apart from keeping the Communist Party alive.

If there is no Communist Party, there are no international relations. There is no international trade. We have been talking about China's violations for so many years, so many decades, but only now the international community is waking up to the reality. I think it's time for a recalibration of your policies to understand that China is not going to be a responsible power, however strong it becomes.

There is also this Achilles heel of China, where they feel very insecure because they spend more money on internal security than external security. That itself is symbolic of the deep distrust between the rulers and the ruled. When the Communist Party is threatened, it's going to definitely do something with India, Taiwan or the South China Sea to instill nationalism for the Communist Party to survive.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Your diplomatic efforts to explain or to make the awareness better on the world stage among many countries is definitely noticeable. That's going to also require leadership, a continuity in leadership, on your side. That's not a concern.

Where do you see that golden time, that golden moment that's going to come? It will happen in the course of history that the opportunity for an improvement will come. It could be a historic improvement for the region.

[Penpa Tsering]

It's very difficult to predict when it's going to happen, but as Buddhists we believe in impermanence. As westerners say, “Change is the only constant.” The question is, when is the change going to come? We are watching the situation, and whenever there's an opportunity we should be able to seize it, but then we need the support of the international community also, with all the like-minded countries coming together, not just one or two countries supporting it.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Besides surveillance, which is also a big concern happening in the region—and inside China too—do you see a sentiment from some people inside the territory of China, on the opposite side of Tibet, that they can understand your concern as a region and that they may at some point meet you halfway to help you get a better deal than the one you have right now?

[Penpa Tsering]

Within the Chinese leadership also, we know that there are the hardliners and the soft-liners. I think former president Hu Jintao also is now concerned. We understand that he regrets that they appointed Xi Jinping as his successor, but it's too late in the day.

Let's see what happens in his third term, because there has to be a sharing of bread. Xi Jinping cannot eat all the bread by himself.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

With your neighbours to the south, can you explain to us the level of co-operation you're having there?

[Penpa Tsering]

In India...?

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Yes.

[Penpa Tsering]

India has been very kind to us. If not for India, we would not be where we are today.

We are very thankful to the government and the people of India for their support, and we have a very transparent relationship with India.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Does that go for Pakistan too?