Foreign Affairs Committee on Aug. 4th, 2022

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

I accept the chair.

It's an interesting meeting, passing the chair around, but here we go.

Mr. Clerk, because we're doing this virtually, you're going to have to tell me who is up next.

[The Clerk]

It will be Ms. Bendayan for the Liberal Party.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Ms. Bendayan, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always nice to see you in that chair, Mr. Morantz.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

It has now been nearly six months since the beginning of the brutal war begun by Russia against Ukraine. I want to begin by reiterating the unwavering support of our government for the Ukrainian people in their fight for freedom, and how important the work of this committee is, not only for our study on Ukraine, but of course for the present study as well.

I'd like to thank the ministers for appearing before the committee.

Ministers, you would agree that Canada has played a leadership role in rallying our allies around the world to put in place one of the most robust sanctions regimes ever against Russia. I believe we need to continue to strengthen those sanctions, as we did just this week on Tuesday, and continue to act in this leadership role.

That of course makes it all the more difficult to be discussing the decision today, a decision of a few weeks ago to send the Siemens turbine from Montreal to Germany at Germany's request. Fundamentally, our sanctions are only as strong as our unity and solidarity amongst allies.

Ministers, what were you hearing at the time? Reports that I have read are to the effect that Germany was making this difficult decision because if it did not get the turbine, then it wouldn't have any gas and, in the German foreign minister's words, “we won’t be able to provide any support for Ukraine at all, because we’ll be busy with popular uprisings”.

I think this makes it clear, to me and to Canadians who are listening, how consequential this decision really was to maintaining the solidarity of the allies against Russia and maintaining a strong sanctions regime.

I understand, Minister Wilkinson, that you were in regular talks with the foreign minister of Germany on this issue at that time, so I'll begin by directing my question to you.

The information that you were getting from Germany at the time, was it concerning to the point that it may have risked the solidarity and the unity of the allied group that we had worked so hard to help pull together?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

The short answer is yes. I cannot overemphasise the depth of the concern on the part of the Germans, but also on the part of the European Union, with respect to the potential implications associated with their effectively not being able to access natural gas.

The German energy minister, Minister Habeck, who is also the vice-chancellor of Germany, reiterated that to me on many occasions. I spoke to him almost every day for several weeks.

It wasn't just limited to the Germans. It was also the Commissioner for Energy of the European Union, Ms. Simson, who underlined this very strongly in the discussions that we had. I will also tell you that in the conversations we had with the United States, they reflected and shared the concerns about the divisions that could end up undermining support for Ukraine, which would be in nobody's interest.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you very much, Minister.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Maybe—

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I have a question for you as well, Minister Joly.

This week, some rather troubling reports appeared in The Globe and Mail on Canada's treatment of Ukrainian and Canadian personnel at its embassy in Kyiv. The safety of our personnel is obviously paramount to both of us.

I'd like to give you an opportunity to clarify for the committee how Canada supported its personnel in Kyiv. Please feel free to answer my previous question, as well.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I'll give a brief answer to your previous question.

While Minister Wilkinson was in talks with Mr. Habeck, Germany's minister of economic affairs, energy and climate protection, I was in contact with the German foreign affairs minister, as well as my foreign affairs counterparts in the EU and the U.S.

That's how we operated. We were in unanimous agreement on the approach, in other words, not giving President Putin any excuse or justification. As for the idea that Russia was using energy to blackmail Europe, we wanted to devise a unified approach with our allies, and that's what we did.

In response to your other question, as foreign affairs minister, I have a moral obligation to ensure the safety of locally hired staff and Canadian diplomats abroad. Thank you for asking me about this. I want to reiterate before the committee that the Government of Canada was never informed that Canadian diplomats and locally hired staff in Kyiv could be in danger because their names appeared on a list. I think it's imperative to make that absolutely clear, because we are talking about the lives of people we work with, and I take decisions like these extremely seriously.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you.

I have perhaps one final question. It's for the deputy minister of global affairs, who I believe is on the line.

Deputy, are you aware of any information suggesting that staff at our embassy in Kyiv were targeted by Russian kill lists, as reported by The Globe and Mail?

[Marta Morgan, Deputy Minister, Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you for that question—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Madam Bendayan. That is your time.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Chair, can the witness be allowed to answer the question with a yes or no?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

We have a very short time with the minister, so I'm going to keep it very tight.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

A yes or no answer.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

You can submit your question in writing to the clerk, if you like.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Chair, I don't mind giving Ms. Morgan a moment to answer yes or no.

[Marta Morgan]

Mr. Chair, we're not aware of any list specifically targeting locally engaged staff at our embassy in Kyiv.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I want to reiterate the fact that I still believe that the decision the Government of Canada made was not an easy one, and I said that when we met to request this study. It is much too easy to just condemn the Canadian government for this decision, despite how unfortunate and potentially harmful it may seem to many, the Bloc Québécois included. I imagine the Canadian government was in an extremely difficult position, and that's what the ministers have told us. This was an incredibly difficult decision to make—I don't deny that.

I would like to thank the ministers for being here today and answering our questions.

It is most unfortunate that Canada found itself in this situation. I realize that the only person literally laughing it up when this occurred was Vladimir Putin, back in the Kremlin. Everyone obviously recognizes that it would have been better not to wind up in a situation like this.

Nonetheless, it is what it is. I don't want to come across as a purveyor of paranoia, but I think it's important to point out that Russia will most definitely be paying close attention to what we are doing here today.

Any outward display of disagreement, whether between parties in the House of Commons or allies, would be very unfortunate, indeed. The most important thing is, and remains, unity against Russia. With that in mind, when the Government of Canada announced that it was granting the permit to export the turbines to Europe, two of the things we called for were tougher sanctions against Russia and more assistance to Ukraine on Canada and Germany's part.

Are those things Canada is seriously considering?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Bergeron.

There is no doubt that our objective is—and will remain—a stricter sanctions regime. As you saw this week, we announced more than 40 new sanctions against individuals involved in the atrocities committed in Bucha.

More sanctions will be announced soon. We will keep introducing sanctions every week or two, just as we have done since the invasion began. To date, we have imposed 1,600 sanctions.

We are always very keen to work with the opposition parties. As you know, I had a conversation with you this morning, as well as with Ms. McPherson and Mr. Chong, to see how we could work together to strengthen the sanctions regime. After all, as you pointed out, we are all united in our concern for Ukraine.

We must show tremendous unity on this issue because Russia is keeping a very close eye on everything having to do with Ukraine, especially in Canada.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Minister, I hope you can assure us that we will see tougher enforcement of the sanctions regime, so it's more than just lip service. We hope that assets will actually be seized and, where appropriate, sold to help Ukraine.

The Government of Canada's decision is temporary and revocable. Our understanding is that the waiver covers up to six turbines for a period of two years.

Can you confirm that?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Yes, I can confirm that. By the way, if the committee members would like a copy of the permit, I would be happy to oblige.

After numerous discussions between myself, Minister Wilkinson, and German, European and American government officials, we made the decision to grant the permit for the six turbines, so the entire contract. That was done so that President Putin couldn't exploit the situation and play with one, two or three turbines.

By allowing all six turbines to be returned to Germany, not Russia, we wanted to prevent President Putin from using the situation as an excuse.