Foreign Affairs Committee on Aug. 4th, 2022

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

I don't think I got an answer on this when I asked this in the last session, but the second question is: Will you immediately rescind the 2014 Harper-era memo that denies locally engaged staff a duty of care, and issue a new memo stating that Canada does have a duty of care?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Indeed, there's an issue with the Harper approach when it comes to duty of care, and that's problematic. We've seen it in the context of Ukraine. Therefore, what I will definitely do, in the context of addressing the issue, is to use the ongoing future-of-diplomacy-process to make sure that we study it and abide by our moral obligations to be there for locally engaged staff when the time arises.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

To be fair, Minister, we don't need to study it; we could rescind that. You've already said that it's wrong, that it's a bad memo and a bad policy. You have the ability to rescind that policy right this minute. You could do that, and that would protect staff around the world who work for Canadians.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Heather, actually, it's in legislation from 2014, so obviously there would be a need to change that legislation. That's why we have to do it—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It's a memo, and you could do it.

I'm going to ask another couple of questions.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Yes, go ahead.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

With regard to the sanctions—and I know it's so fast, I apologize—I have put forward a suggestion for a follow-up study to the 2017 committee study on Canada's sanctions regime. I think we're all very worried that the sanctions regime is not transparent and not enforceable and not being done properly. So I would like to bring the CBSA, the RCMP and national security folks before the committee to talk about the sanctions issues and to discuss the threats to Canadians and to our national staff abroad. I'm wondering if you would agree, given that there are so many problems with our sanctions regime, that an annual report—one of the recommendations from the 2017 study—would be a good idea.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I haven't read directly the 2017 report. I will look into it. I look forward to talking to you about it for sure.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you to both ministers for your time and answering our questions today. It's very much appreciated.

We're going to suspend for a couple of minutes to do a sound check for Ms. Chyczij from the UCC. We will pick it up then.

Thank you and have a nice day.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you, folks.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

We are resuming the meeting.

We have with us a representative from the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, Alexandra Chyczij, president of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, appearing virtually.

Ms. Chyczij, please proceed with your opening statement for five minutes.

[Alexandra Chyczij, President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, I would like to thank you for the opportunity of addressing you on the 162nd day of the war in Ukraine.

Every morning since February 24, I have been checking my phone and giving silent thanks that none of my friends or family were killed overnight. After I check my phone, I ask myself, “What am I going to do today to end Russia's war against Ukraine?” Today what I am doing is testifying before you.

On July 28, Russian social media channels posted a video of a Russian soldier castrating a Ukrainian POW. The next day, Russian occupation forces in Olenivka murdered over 50 Ukrainian POWs. A week before that, the Russians bombed the port of Odessa from which grain was to be exported, and the week before that, the Russians bombed a shopping centre in Vinnytsia, and before that, Kremenchuk, Kharkiv and Mariupol. Evidence of mass rape of civilians—women, girls and boys—has been collected and documented.

In March, after the Russians retreated, mass graves of civilians were found in Bucha. I visited Bucha in June, and what I saw, I assure you, I will never forget.

I could go on, but suffice to say that we've all had a front seat view in our living rooms where we've witnessed the horror of what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

Since February 24, Russia has earned over a hundred billion euros in revenue from fossil fuels, and 60% of that came from the EU. This is untenable. This is the financing of genocide.

Today I ask you, members of the committee, the same question that I ask myself: What will you do today to end Russia's war against Ukraine?

The Ukrainian Canadian Congress asks that you do the following: call on the Government of Canada to revoke the permit that allows the ongoing servicing of turbines that enable Russia's terrorist war machine to function and to restore full sanctions against Gazprom.

Why do we suggest that? It's because it's absolutely clear that Russia contrived the Nord Stream 1 debacle to test the resolve of Germany, Canada and our allies on sanctions. We have failed that test. Germany and Canada did not understand what the test was. It's about sanctions, the unity on sanctions, not just on Nord Stream 1 but on the ultimate prize, Nord Stream 2. Putin has not given up on that.

When Chancellor Scholz says that he called a bluff, he called the wrong bluff. Nonetheless, he's received a response, and now the choice is clear: It's time to restore those sanctions.

As you know, the UCC opposed and continues to oppose the waiver of sanctions on Gazprom and, indeed, the waiver of any sanctions as they relate to Russia and its genocidal war in Ukraine. It's been the long-standing position of the UCC that seeking to accommodate or placate Russia only emboldens them. The Russian regime responds only to strength. We know this because of events in the past and by Russia's war against Ukraine in the present, and it will be borne out in the future as well unless we collectively put an end to this.

Mr. Sorbara, that journey can't be long, because too many Ukrainians are dying every day.

I submit to you that there is no reasonable justification for the continuation of the waiver, and there was none when the decision was first taken.

As you review the testimony before you today, I ask you to consider two things. Did the Government of Canada do everything possible to avoid lifting those sanctions? Did they leave any stone unturned before capitulating to what everyone knows was blackmail? Secondly, is there an ongoing justification to continue with the waiver?

I believe there were other options that Canada and Germany could have pursued, but it appears that they chose not to pursue them. First, we've already heard mention of the alternative pipelines through Ukraine and Poland. Now, that would have been a bluff worth calling to put that choice to Putin, but Minister Wilkinson has said that those were not a viable choice. Ironically, are they a better choice than the 20% flow rate that Gazprom has now reduced the pipeline to?

We should also note that those pipelines running through Ukraine are the only piece of infrastructure that Russia has not yet bombed. Ask yourself, why not?

There are also alternative energy suppliers on the global market. We have not heard any evidence on that point and it appears that Chancellor Scholz was interested in only one alternative, the continued supply of cheap Russian gas for two more years and through a Gazprom-owned pipeline, and not any other pipeline.

As for the continuation of the permit in light of what has transpired since July 9, we submit there is no justification. As was entirely predictable, Russia did not restore the gas flow and is now demanding further concessions. First, the papers weren't in order. Now the repairs are defective. This dance will continue forever and, frankly, I am very troubled by the ease with which the Government of Canada granted the turbine waiver. It does not instill confidence that further concessions won't be granted.

One of the most important lessons that history has taught us is that appeasement of aggressors and dictators does not work. It has the opposite effect: It emboldens them. Appeasement is what got us here in the first place after the west remained silent on Georgia, on Chechnya, Crimea and the Donbass, Syria, on Salisbury, and countless other blatant violations of international law by Russia.

As NATO secretary, Jens Stoltenberg, recently stated, if Ukraine loses, it's a danger for us: It will make Europe even more vulnerable to Russian aggression. So even if you don't care about the moral aspect of this, you should care about your own security interest. He went on to say that we must pay. We must pay for the support, pay for the humanitarian aid and pay for the consequences of the economic sanctions because the alternative is to pay a much higher price later on.

Yes, we pay a price, but the price we pay as the EU and NATO is a price we measure in money. The price Ukrainians pay is measured in the lives lost every day. So it's time for Canada and our allies to finally take the upper hand in dealing with Russia and to say no to blackmail and stop responding to their demands.

Thank you for the time.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you very much, Ms. Chyczij.

Now we'll go right to Mr. Bezan who has a six-minute round.

Mr. Bezan, you have the floor.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank Alexandra from the UCC for appearing today. This is a very troubling time. It's embarrassing that the Government of Canada capitulated. I appreciate your thoughts about everyone in Ukraine and your strong advocacy on behalf of Ukraine here in Canada.

You talk about the sanctions regime. Do you believe that this is the thin edge of the wedge that could potentially topple the entire sanctions regime, with the return of the turbines, and do you believe that every time Putin wants to call his bluff—as Minister Wilkinson said—that Canada is going to be suckered in?

[Alexandra Chyczij]

I think this is the first waiver of sanctions that we have seen. I think it is the thin edge of the wedge and the way to resolve it is to revoke that permit and show Putin that the west will not be toyed with.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you.

Now that more revenues are flowing back to Russia, or potentially could flow back to Russia with the return of the turbines, do you believe Canada should be increasing its military assistance to Ukraine as well as humanitarian relief?

[Alexandra Chyczij]

We have always advocated for more and continued assistance to Ukraine. We are, of course, grateful for the support that the Government of Canada has provided to date, but the war is not over. The economic situation in Ukraine is deteriorating. They need more help and of course on the military front the Ukrainians must be allowed to win this war. They're prepared to fight our fight—the west's fight—and the least we can do is support them militarily.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

So you would agree, or the UCC would agree, that military equipment, like sending the new sniper rifles that are sitting at PGW Defence in Winnipeg, should be purchased by the Government of Canada and supplied to Ukraine? Or would you agree that the armoured ambulances that we have on inventory that are about to be retired—there are 32 Bisons that are configured as armoured ambulances—should be sent to Ukraine to help save lives, or that the soon-to-be-retired light armoured vehicles that we have, the entire fleet of Coyotes and Bisons and M113s, track LAVs, which are all about to be retired, are things that Canada should be supplying right now to Ukraine, and that Canada has dragged its feet on this?

[Alexandra Chyczij]

Mr. Bezan, I never thought that I would have to learn the language of war or understand military procurement. It pains me every day that I have to do that. I don't pretend to be a military expert. When we are asked these questions, we defer to our embassy in Ottawa to assist us in understanding what the needs of Ukraine are. All I can say is, if Canada has it, we should send it.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you.

When we're looking at the atrocities you laid out and we talk about the capitulation by the Government of Canada, aside from revoking the waiver and reversing this ill-advised decision, what should the Government of Canada be doing to ensure that those who are responsible for the atrocities and war crimes that we're witnessing are brought to justice?

[Alexandra Chyczij]

We, of course, have the International Criminal Court that has taken steps and opened investigations. There is ongoing work with the Office of the Prosecutor. Personally, I would like to see Canada playing a greater role in the prosecution of war crimes.

We are blessed to have amongst us a prominent jurist, the Honourable Louise Arbour, who has direct experience in that. She has prosecuted a genocide in her lifetime. I would encourage the Government of Canada to assign Madam Arbour to that role to represent Canada in that effort.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, I think it's very unfortunate that we invited the UCC to be here for only half an hour when they are the leading voice of the Ukrainian diaspora and those of us of Ukrainian heritage who live in Canada, and when they are so knowledgeable on the crimes against humanity that are occurring in Ukraine and on what Ukraine needs and when they're in constant communication with the Government of Ukraine.

I'd like to move the following:

That the committee invite the Ukrainian Canadian Congress back to answer additional questions on the matter currently before the committee for an additional hour before Saturday, August 20, 2022.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

We have a motion on the floor. Does anyone wish to speak to the motion?