Foreign Affairs Committee on Aug. 4th, 2022

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

No. Six turbines are used for the Nord Stream 1 pipeline, and some replacement turbines are, of course, used when there are problems or to service a turbine.

The turbines currently used on this pipeline are from Siemens, and a maintenance contract has been established with Gazprom.

When we discussed this concern, we wanted to—

We wanted to remove the excuse that Putin had for why he was looking to essentially reduce gas loads, which was that he did not have access, in his view, to the turbines.

At the end of the day, if we returned the turbine and gas loads returned to higher levels, that would be a very good outcome. At the end of the day, if we returned the turbines and that did not affect gas loads, it essentially would be calling Putin's bluff. He cannot blame Canada and he cannot blame western Europe for the fact that there are no gas loads there. That maintains the solidarity of the alliance, and that was the context in which we made the decision.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Bergeron, allow me to add a comment to what Mr. Wilkinson just said.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Unfortunately, that's the two and a half minutes.

Our next round is Ms. McPherson for two and a half minutes.

You have the floor, Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

These are very short rounds.

Minister Joly, I'm going to ask some questions now about the embassy staff in Ukraine.

We have heard that the deputy minister was unaware of any specific kill lists. However, were you aware of intelligence briefings from the Five Eyes that said embassy staff may be included on lists—not specifically, but may be included?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I never had that information, Heather.

I think we need to get to the bottom of the story, because I think Canadians need to know. Of course, I want to make sure that we shed light on this story, so—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm sorry to interrupt.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I'll get to that.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Will you release to the committee the correspondence? Will you share the emails, the memos and the notes between Global Affairs Canada and the diplomatic staff in Ukraine? Will you share that with us so we can play our role as parliamentarians?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Yes. My goal is definitely that you can all play your role as parliamentarians. I think that, since this is intelligence information that is linked to war right now, my suggestion is that, should parliamentarians be entrusted with it, we could definitely have the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians study this issue. Of course, I would make myself available, because it is very important that Canadians know that the Government of Canada was there to protect not only Canadian diplomats but also locally engaged staff.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

You didn't get information from the Five Eyes, which is quite worrying because we would hope that some of that information would be available. More importantly for looking forward, as you've mentioned, we know that this happens, because there was a memo put in place by Stephen Harper in 2014 that denied locally engaged stuff a duty of care.

Will you immediately rescind that 2014 memo and issue a new memo stating that Canada does have a duty of care towards locally engaged staff, so that this kind of betrayal never happens again?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Heather, in the context, of what was happening in Ukraine, we went above what was technically the duty of care. We wanted to make sure that since lives could be at risk because the threat of invasion was real and imminent, we offered Canadian locally engaged staff to come to Canada. Some have come, and some have decided to stay in Ukraine.

We also offered them work outside of Kyiv, even though the Canadian diplomats had left. Also, we offered them—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

But it is worth noting that that didn't launch until a month after the embassy closed and the other staff were evacuated.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson. That's the end of your round. I'm sorry to interrupt.

Mr. Genuis, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair. I'm going to follow up on The Globe and Mail story about the locally engaged staff at the Canadian embassy.

Minister, the sources for the Globe story are three separate Canadian diplomats with direct knowledge of these events. Now, you've offered a very qualified denial of the story. You said that you were not aware of kill lists that specifically named Canadians, but that was not the question and that was not The Globe and Mail story. Their story was that Canadian embassy staff were likely on lists and that the Five Eyes briefed Canadian officials that Ukrainians who worked for western embassies were likely on the list, and further, that the Canadian embassy made a decision not to pass that information along.

Minister, to be very clear, is The Globe and Mail story in your view correct or not?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

What I can tell you is that I didn't have that information, my team didn't have that information you heard, the deputy, the department didn't have that information. So we need to get to the bottom of this—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sorry, could you just clarify, what do you mean by “the department didn't have that information”?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

We had no information—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Do you mean no employee of the Canadian government had this information?

Who's “we”, though?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

We.... That's me, my political staff and Global Affairs Canada according to what the deputy has just mentioned. We had no information regarding the fact that there were lists specifically targeting Canadian diplomats and locally engaged staff in Kyiv.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

But that is not the question. The Globe and Mail story said that Five Eyes gave a brief to the Canadian embassy that it was likely that Ukrainian nationals who were locally engaged staff working at western embassies were likely on the list.

Can you please just give us a clear answer? In your view, is The Globe and Mail story—

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Garnett, what I can tell you—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

—true or false? Is The Globe and Mail story true or false, yes or no?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

—is that we knew, and this is public.... What I can tell you is that indeed—and the Americans made that intelligence public—there were some lists specifically targeting Ukrainian people in Ukraine and, of course, we were preoccupied with this targeting.

In the context of having any information regarding Canadians being on these lists—Canadian diplomats, and locally engaged staff—we had no information regarding this. That is why it's really important that Canadians be clear on that, because of course it is about the Government of Canada's responsibility towards not only the people who work for us but also people who are serving us while we are in Ukraine.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Minister. I asked a clear question. You didn't provide an answer.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

No, I answered. I provided a very clear answer.