Foreign Affairs Committee on Sept. 7th, 2022

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

Again, as far as we know at this point, the exemption, as you know and as we know, is for these six turbines for two years, which is actually far broader than the initial story about one particular turbine. That has continued to evolve, and I think with the attention of this committee and with the attention of the public, we have not yet seen any other changes to any other sanctions policies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm afraid you have just 10 seconds, Mr. Sarai.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

It's all good. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you for that.

Next we'll go to Mr. Bergeron for two minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When the government decided to allow this waiver, the Bloc Québécois felt that it was certainly a difficult decision, and that the Canadian government had been caught between a rock and a hard place and forced to choose between cholera and malaria, so to speak. So it was an extremely difficult decision. We felt that the government must have had very good reasons for making that decision at the time.

On the other hand, we immediately said that this would surely lead to a new round of sanctions and Canada providing more military support to Ukraine. However, we've seen few additional sanctions since then. Where military support is concerned, we note that, other than announcing the extension of Operation UNIFIER, the “Canadian military support to Ukraine” page on the government website has made no announcements regarding the provision of military equipment to Ukraine, which it urgently needs, as the Ukrainian ambassador reminded us when she appeared more than two months ago. The ambassador insisted that it was imperative that these supplies reach Ukraine this summer.

On the one hand, how would you assess the reasons ministers Wilkinson and Joly gave us for making this difficult decision?

On the other, how would you assess Canada's contribution to Ukraine since then? In your opinion, is it meeting the needs expressed by the Ukrainians?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'll ask that you limit your response to 30 seconds, please.

[Orest Zakydalsky]

Very quickly—

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Didn't you say we had four minutes?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

No. I'm afraid you had two minutes—

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

That wasn't specified.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

—as I indicated.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I didn't hear that.

Go ahead, gentlemen.

[Orest Zakydalsky]

Very quickly, with regard to your earlier question about the pipeline, the Ukrainian pipeline is working at the same 40% capacity that it was.

With regard to your question about Minister Joly and Minister Wilkinson's reasoning, we respectfully disagree.

With regard to your question about the supply of weapons to Ukraine, we have just written to Minister Anand, calling for the government to make another substantial announcement of weapons deliveries, following up on the announcement in budget 2022.

We look forward to a response from the department of defence and from the Canadian government on further deliveries of weapons.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

Now we'll go to Ms. McPherson. You have two minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This whole conversation is around the sanctions regime. I have found it incredibly difficult to get information about the sanctions. It's the details of what's been seized and the details of the sanctions. It's not who has been sanctioned, but how much and what.

I would like to take a moment, if I could. Please bear with me to read into the record a motion that I brought forward on May 31, 2022:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee conduct a follow-up study to the 2017 FAAE Committee study on Canada's sanctions regime titled “A Coherent and Effective Approach to Canada's Sanctions Regimes: Sergei Magnitsky and Beyond”; that the Committee review the Government's implementation of the recommendations in the 2017 report; that the Committee review the need for new recommendations, if any, resulting from Canada's response to the situation in Ukraine and other situations since 2017; that the Committee hold no fewer than (4) four meetings; that the Committee report its findings to the House; and that pursuant to Standing Order 109, the Government table a comprehensive response to the report.

I would like the subcommittee to have an opportunity to discuss this. I think we've heard from our witnesses from the UCC that our sanctions regime needs to be re-examined very carefully. We've heard that the waiver has fundamentally damaged our sanctions regime and fundamentally damaged the credibility of Canada. It is imperative that this committee undertake a study as soon as possible.

I will end at that point because I know I'm very close to my two minutes.

Orest and Ihor, I would like to thank you both very much for being here. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

We'll now go to Mr. Aboultaif for four minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, I don't believe Mr. Aboultaif is on it. Either I or Mr. Chong could take the round. I will defer to Mr. Chong if he wants to, but otherwise I'm happy to proceed.

I guess the limitation of a hybrid meeting is that we can't whisper to each other as we normally would.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You may as well proceed, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I will proceed. That's excellent.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Could one or both of you comment on the impact that this turbine decision has had on Canada-Ukraine relations?

President Zelenskyy chose to speak personally to this issue. I know from friends and contacts I have spoken to in Ukraine that there's a lot of disappointment. There's a sense of betrayal. There's a long history of close relations between Canada and Ukraine, but in this very dark time for Ukraine, what was the significance of this decision for Ukraine?

Also, maybe related to that, the government talks about standing with our allies. Germany and the U.S., our allies, have said this was okay. Ukraine is also supposed to be an ally, yet the government speaks of standing with our allies with no acknowledgement of the response to this decision from Ukraine.

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

Thank you.

As you've heard in the President's statements and the ambassador's statement—I don't need to repeat those—we believe that the path forward is going to involve more direct co-operation between Canada, Germany and Ukraine to find a solution that everybody is pleased with and comfortable with. Ukraine has counted on Canada as a key ally in the last 30 years of building this democracy, and particularly now at this moment of greatest need with the Russian invasion, but it isn't a great moment. It isn't a great moment to have allies arguing with each other about this.

We do know that the Ukrainian people have the support of Canada and the Canadian people and we look forward to moving past this conversation and moving past this specific topic to return to a strong sanctions regime and to focus on the future in which there is more discussion of what Canada can do next.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Personally, I think the study that Ms. McPherson spoke about, a study on the effectiveness of our sanctions regime, would be very important and worthwhile in order to build on the work that we're doing in the context of this discussion.

As a follow-up to Mr. Bergeron's point, some of us took the position right at the beginning that this was a terrible decision. That was where we as the Conservative Party were at. I think there were others who were maybe a little bit more sympathetic to the government's decision initially, and then since more facts have become clear, since Gazprom hasn't taken the first turbine and Russia is seeking further concessions, more and more people are coming over to the point of view that surely even if the decision was justifiable in the first instance, there's no reason to continue the waiver now.

Have you had ongoing engagement with the government, even in the last couple of days, since the most recent announcements from the Kremlin? What is the government saying now? Are they saying the same things? Are they saying different things compared to what they were saying at the beginning?

[Orest Zakydalsky]

I will answer quickly.

A week or more ago we wrote again to Minister Joly to make the point that now is the time to cancel this waiver. We have not yet heard back from the office of the Minister of Foreign Affairs. We will follow up. Should we hear something, we will of course be happy to share that.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

I'm assuming you would welcome the opportunity for further engagement with the minister. We would welcome the opportunity to have her back as some of these new revelations have come out. Are you seeking opportunities for further engagement with the minister to get clarity on what the government's position is now in light of the new information?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

We are, definitely. We continue to reach out to her office and we look for public statements and have been open to hearing any developments from their perspective.