Evidence of meeting #34 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pakistan.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Epp Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON
In that dialogue, how big a voice does the Montana group carry?
4:55 p.m.
Ambassador of Canada to Haiti, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I would argue that they have a very big voice, maybe more outside of Haiti than in Haiti. They do represent a vast coalition of civil society organizations, some of which are very important. They clearly have a seat at the table. We think they need to be part of the solution. They're a constellation of organizations. I'm not sure how homogenous it really is. For me, it has to be all hands on deck. It can't be politics as usual, where one faction tries to outweigh the other and so on and so forth. It shouldn't even be about politics; it should be about Haiti. You heard the numbers I gave earlier.
4:55 p.m.
Ambassador of Canada to Haiti, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I don't think the country can afford to itself the luxury of a sustained political crisis. I think everyone needs to get together. I think that includes Ariel Henry, and that certainly includes the Montana group.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Mr. Epp, you are considerably over time.
We will now go to Mr. Dubourg.
You have six minutes, sir.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC
Thank you, Chair.
I would like to welcome our witnesses. We have both Sébastiens with us.
Welcome.
Ambassador, Your Excellency, I am very pleased that you are here at our committee today.
I would like to ask you several questions. I'm going to be succinct, and if you can answer the same way, I will be grateful.
My first question is this.
In the current context in Haiti, from the political, humanitarian and security perspective, how are your staff in Haiti doing?
5 p.m.
Ambassador of Canada to Haiti, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Thank you for the question, Mr. Dubourg.
I would like to take a moment to congratulate you on your statement in the House of Commons two weeks ago. It made quite an impression here in Haiti and we are all grateful.
The embassy staff are doing well, in the circumstances. Obviously, these eight weeks of crisis have been trying. People are tired, but the Canadian employees and the local staff are able to take short breaks and take it in turns.
Clearly the situation is harder for our Haitian employees; they have seen their country paralyzed for nearly two months. On the other hand, we are well stocked in terms of fuel, food and water reserves, and so on. We are not lacking anything. Certainly everyone would like the current episode of the crisis to be resolved as fast as possible.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC
Thank you, Ambassador.
I would like to know why Canada, of all the countries on the international scene, is considered to be in best placed to intervene in Haiti, in the event that it were to be necessary.
5 p.m.
Ambassador of Canada to Haiti, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
That is really more a question for a political scientist than the ambassador, but I will still try to answer it, without putting my foot in my mouth.
I would say we have a relatively positive history in Haiti when it comes to doing a good job of balancing our involvement. Canada's solidarity with the people of Haiti is well known, and has been for years. Before that, there were missionaries who came to build schools here, and so on. There is also the general history of the country and the relations between the two countries, obviously. You know Haitian history better than I do. There was the occupation by a former colonial power, there was the American occupation, and there have been all sorts of episodes that mean that some countries kind of bring up the ghosts of the past.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC
Thank you.
In terms of intervention, you know that in the diaspora, as in Haiti itself, people are very divided on the possibility of intervention. The Prime Minister of Canada made a statement in which he said that before sending any mission to Haiti, a certain number of conditions must be present. One of the conditions he mentioned was the level of support among the Haitian people.
How would you describe that support?
5 p.m.
Ambassador of Canada to Haiti, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
It is very difficult to measure, because we do not have many tools for doing surveys or organizing focus groups, as is done in Canada.
First, I don't like the word "intervention"; I prefer "assistance". I think that is also what Haitians in general prefer, and it is certainly the word used by the people we talk to.
I have had the privilege of travelling a lot in the country over the last year, and I can tell you that not even to mention security assistance, Canada is very active there. I visited people in different regions of the country, and most Haitians were still happy to see people from the embassy of Canada and talk about projects and the needs on the ground and the support we offer in that country. So we enjoy a good reputation and we are doing good work. I am not saying it's perfect. Significant amounts of money have been invested. Of course, we could have done some things better, but in general, Canada is very well regarded.
My impression is that Canada's relatively measured response to Mr. Henry's request two weeks ago and the fact that we are taking the time to speak and meet with people before making a decision is part of the equation.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC
In your opening address, you also talked about openness, corruption—and I would add "systemic"—on the part of the gangs, the economic elite and politicians. Canada wants to impose severe sanctions on those people.
Do you think sanctions could have a significant effect, particularly on the economic elite?
5 p.m.
Ambassador of Canada to Haiti, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Absolutely. It may be the missing ingredient. For several weeks, when we have talked about the possibility of an assistance mission, it has often been said that we have to avoid the errors of the past. You have heard this from Bob Rae, from Justin Trudeau and from Mélanie Joly.
One of the errors of the past is that we have intervened in a massive way but without tackling the structural problems in the economy and the fact that a small group of players controlled an enormous part of the Haitian economy. These are people who sometimes do business in a not so clean way. We absolutely have to tackle that right away. If we apply the same solutions as in the past, we can't expect a different result.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC
Thank you.
You know that here, we have systems that do not exist in Haiti, like Elections Canada and Elections Québec.
At what point do you think elections could be held in Haiti?
5:05 p.m.
Ambassador of Canada to Haiti, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
To have elections, there first has to be a political accord on the transition. Prime Minister Henry has one, but he needs more partners, to get to the next stage, appointing a provisional electoral council, or CEP. That is a body that has somewhat the same function as Elections Canada and is composed of nine members from specific sectors. The people appointed are businesspeople, trade unionists, politicians, and so on.
The purpose of the political accord is to agree on the composition of the CEP. Elections experts tell me that it would then take about a year before elections can be held. Today is October 31.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC
Thank you.
My next question will undoubtedly be the last.
Do you take a favourable view of participation by Caribbean Community, or CARICOM, countries in a possible intervention in Haiti?
5:05 p.m.
Ambassador of Canada to Haiti, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Yes, absolutely. I have had a lot of discussions with CARICOM partners and regional parties, not just in the last few weeks, but for a year. Canada is making a lot of effort to get more commitments from countries in the region. We can learn a lot from our partners in the region. We have to listen to them and work with them.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC
You have been the Canadian ambassador in Haiti for over a year. When do you think the proliferation of gangs in Haiti began? There are said to be 200 of them. When you first took office, how many were there?
5:05 p.m.
Ambassador of Canada to Haiti, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Yes, I think there were that many. I would say it started in the last ten years. A history course could be taught on the use of violence in Haitian politics. We need only think of the Tonton Macoutes during Duvalier's time, or the "chimères", the ghosts, for example. The use of violence in politics in Haiti is not a new phenomenon. As to its current manifestation, I can't give you a precise year, but we have seen the emergence of these gangs starting a decade ago. It is absolutely tragic.
You know this, since we talked about it at my last appearance, but I will repeat it for everyone's benefit: the area south of the capital is blocked, so no one can get out. That also means that the entire southern peninsula is blocked. The people in that area cannot come to Port-au-Prince, and so goods can't move, nor can assistance be delivered. The way out to the Dominican Republic, the road to Dajabón, has also been blocked for a year. We are 64 kilometres from the Dominican Republic here. Before, at least, we had the road going north, but for several months that has been extremely dangerous. I don't want to say it is blocked, but it too is virtually blocked. So the capital is surrounded. The only side that is not blocked is the sea.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC
Ambassador, do you think it would be possible for an intervention to take place in Haiti without any blood being spilled?
5:05 p.m.
Ambassador of Canada to Haiti, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
In my opinion, that must be the absolute priority, so every effort has to be made to ensure that providing security assistance in Haiti is done as peacefully as possible.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
5:05 p.m.
Ambassador of Canada to Haiti, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
The gangs are heavily armed, in fact.
The fact that all sorts of weapons and ammunition coming from the United States, in particular, are getting into Haiti is extremely problematic.
Illegal arms trafficking takes place throughout the Caribbean and in Central America, not just in Haiti.
The gangs are heavily armed, but some people who work in this field, including experts on gangs, could tell you what they tell me, which is that the desire...