Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We will now go to Mr. Epp.

Mr. Epp, you have four minutes.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I go on, Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time. I cannot imagine the stress you're under.

Picking up from where we left off earlier, if there is a consensus coming from the assessment team, from discussions with our international community, that Canada should intervene with military aid, are both options on the table, both peacekeeping forces and interventionist forces? We've long supported, as I understand it, the Haitian National Police. Where will Canada go? What would be your recommendation?

[Sébastien Carrière]

This was obviously a big topic with the assessment team last week, right? Again, learn the lessons of the past.

I think what's really important is that whoever comes in can't be substituting themselves for the Haitian National Police. You're right. We have heavily invested in the Haitian National Police. It's a very strong core around which we can continue to build.

I would see it as us coming behind the HNP and strengthening them even more. I think if you do that, then you avoid the mistakes of the past, where you come in and do everything for them and try to bring them along. Obviously, it didn't work, because when MINUSTAH left, what happened, happened.

I think that's the key. In any scenario, we have to build it around supporting the HNP. The sustainable solution to Haiti's security problem is the Haitian National Police.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

I want to echo the comments of my colleague across the way, MP Dubourg, that none of us want to see blood spilled.

To that, then, may I ask, what was Secretary Blinken's ask of Canada relative to your immediate comment?

[Sébastien Carrière]

I was not in that meeting. I can't tell you exactly what he asked for.

I did read the Miami Herald the day before the visit, where it was fairly obvious that the State Department is looking for Canada to take leadership of this force. However, I don't think they've defined exactly what shape or form it would take.

They're quite aware that at the same time that the secretary was in Ottawa, the assessment team was here looking at options. I should take it as a compliment that they want us to lead, but I think we have to do things our way, the Canadian way. Look at Canada's interests in doing this, and do it with regional partners. It's very important that we talk to the right people before we make any decisions.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Mr. Ambassador, I want to take my remaining time and shift a bit over to aid to Haiti.

I think it's $1.87 billion that we, as a country, have donated.

Can I ask, is Canada right now supplying some aid bilaterally, or is most of it, or hopefully all of it, flowing through our organizations here in Canada and to their partners on the ground? Can you give me a rough split on what's being done bilaterally and what's being done through partner organizations?

[Sébastien Carrière]

Mr. Sigouin, can you answer that question?

You may have the figures in front of you.

[Sébastien Sigouin, Executive Director, Haiti, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for your question.

Indeed, the Canadian assistance is a mix both of multilateral funding, for example, response to humanitarian needs, but also working with bilateral partners in a number of fields, whether it's gender equality, health or education. The Prime Minister recently announced a Canadian contribution of $20 million for reconstruction in Haiti. He made that announcement a few weeks ago. Canada is also strongly supporting strengthening the security system in Haiti.

With regard to numbers per se, from a bilateral programming perspective—and it's a mix of Canadian and international partners and multilateral partners—our funding last year was about $50 million. Then the other half, just for last year—we had about $98 million to $100 million last year—was a mix of humanitarian, as well, and other partners.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Mr. Epp.

We will now go to Ms. Vandenbeld.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much. I will be splitting my time with Mr. Zuberi, so I'll be quick.

First of all, Ambassador, thank you so much for being here to talk about Haiti. This is a crisis that, I believe, is not getting the kind of attention it should be getting. We hear the stories from diaspora communities but also from our development partners on the ground, and it is absolutely heart-wrenching to hear what is happening on the ground.

We've talked a lot about what to do in the immediate crisis right now, the lack of rule of law, amongst other things. Obviously there are deep underlying issues here. I wonder, Ambassador, if you can talk about the long term and how we address the issues of governance and corruption and a lot of things that have led to the current crisis. To be honest, when we speak with development partners, many of them actually say that in some ways the prioritization—they call it the “projectization”—of development is being set by international development partners that have projects that people then respond to, as opposed to actually reflecting the needs of the people on the ground in Haiti.

I wonder if you could give us some recommendations about how we can make sure we're really responding to the core issues on the ground.

[Sébastien Carrière]

That's a great question. Thank you for that.

We're really good at diagnostics, right? When I say “we”, it's everybody who works on Haiti. We spend so much time figuring out what's wrong. I think we know what's wrong and how we got here. I think we know that if Haiti's going to have long-term success, it needs to restructure, to reform the economy. It needs people to pay their taxes and their customs fees. It needs a judicial system to enforce that. The judicial system has pretty much collapsed.

In order to do that, it needs to fight what is Haiti's biggest, number one problem since the dictatorship, and that is impunity. Everything stems from impunity—corruption and impunity. We've tried, over the course of the last 30 years, every time there has been an assistance mission, to fight impunity from the inside—with some success. The country has been going up and down. It's in a pretty big low right now, but there were some things that really worked.

What we didn't do is fight it from the outside in, and that's where the sanctions piece comes in. Sanctioning sounds short term because it's new, but it's not. To me it's fundamental. It's long term. What you do is stop the flow of all this illicit capital out of the country. You change the behaviour of the economic elite. You change the way the country works at a macroeconomic level. Then we can start doing the other stuff and actually have a lasting impact. That's why it's very important.

We can actually do it because we're Canada and because we're the U.S. The links between the North American economy and Haiti's economy are obvious. That, to me, is the long-term part.

I think your question also deserves a longer answer—frankly, a whole seminar—on how we plan better as an international community once stability comes back, how we approach our assistance better, how we coordinate ourselves better. I would hope we'd bring in new donors. I have to say the first time I worked on Haiti was right after the earthquake in 2010. There were several countries that were very active at the time that have left, that are no longer active. Some have just closed down and are gone, and that's a shame. We have to show these donors, these countries, that it's worth coming back.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

Sameer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We're out of time, Mr. Zuberi. Thank you.

We now go to Mr. Bergeron.

You have two minutes, Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If I may, Your Excellency, I would like to come back to the draft resolution that was being prepared by the United States and Mexico.

The Haitian ambassador in Washington has called on the international community to speed up the talks on deploying an armed intervention in Haiti, when efforts to ratify a United Nations resolution supporting such a force seemed to have stalled.

While we hear through the grapevine what is going on in the negotiations for that resolution between Canada and the United States, does Canada intend to take part in such a mission in one way or another?

[Sébastien Carrière]

Canada plainly intends to engage with the problem and contribute to solutions. I mentioned the political leadership relating to this situation that has been exercised for what will soon be a year. Intense talks are continuing. Ambassador Bob Rae, who plays an important role in New York, even came here in August. We went to the Dominican Republic together after that. It goes without saying that we are not about to stop playing that role this week.

In addition, if I may, I am going to come back to the effect of the sanctions. When the United Nations resolution was adopted ten days ago, the effect was immediate in the streets of Port-au-Prince. There has not been the slightest violent demonstration or violent blockage since then. The Varreux terminal is still blocked, as are the exits from the city, but in the metropolitan area in Port-au-Prince, we have seen an immediate effect, a change in behaviour. That is very important. It is a short-term or long-term effect.

In my opinion, that may create a space in which talks can take place. These are serious, difficult and important discussions. As the saying goes, things must be allowed to take their course. We also have to take the time to consult the appropriate people, to avoid making the same mistakes we made last time.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much, Your Excellency.

I would also like to thank the embassy staff.

Going forward, you can count on our collaboration, and in this way we will be able to help the Haitian people. Let us hope that this will be effective and lasting and our support helps them make their way out of this crisis, which comes on top of all the previous ones. We have to enable that country to find a degree of stability and, we hope, of prosperity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Bergeron, you're considerably over time.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

Ms. McPherson, you have two minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the ambassador for being with us today.

Ambassador, I would like some more information about the humanitarian efforts being undertaken.

What steps is Canada taking to ensure that humanitarian organizations working in Haiti to deliver services in a neutral, impartial way aren't going to be drawn into a military or security operation? Can they continue to work to deliver services to people on the basis of need, not based on political priorities or security interests?

[Sébastien Carrière]

Absolutely.

I think it's an important question. It's very much top of mind at all times for us, particularly these days...with the intensity of the security crisis in these last couple of weeks.

They have good access here. They've been able to maintain that access. There's a strong fellowship among the agencies. If there are ever issues, a government will always cooperate.

Right now, what's important is.... We're trying to focus on cholera. We want to nip this thing in the bud before it happens. I think there's a flash appeal being prepared by OCHA, or somebody else in Geneva. We're tracking that very closely. There are regular meetings between my humanitarian officials and the various UN agencies to make sure we're tracking everything and addressing problems, if and as they arise.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

I think the humanitarian community will be happy to hear that. They've certainly been reaching out to us about concerns around that.

My last question for you, very quickly, is this: Yesterday, Brazil chose new leadership. We have President-elect Lula's election. Considering Brazil's involvement in the past, do you think this may change the direction the international community takes? Do you feel it will have any impact? What would be your assessment of that?

[Sébastien Carrière]

It's early days.

Clearly, Brazil stepped back a bit from their leadership on Haiti. They're still here. The ambassador is a wonderful man. He's a friend. They play a positive role. Perhaps the position of the new Brazilian government will change. I guess we'll have to see. Time will tell.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'll finish by saying that I appreciate your testimony today. It's been very informative.

All of us have said this here in this room: The Government of Canada needs to listen to Haitians and let Haitians have the ability to take their country forward into the democracy and thriving economy I think they deserve. They should thrive in a community that is safe and does not have the suffering we're seeing in Haiti right now.

Thank you very much for being here.

[Sébastien Carrière]

Thank you.

Let the record show that I was nodding the whole way.