Foreign Affairs Committee on Dec. 7th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Ms. Bendayan, that's debate. We're going to have to go back—

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

On a point of order, I believe that Mr. Genuis was debating, in the point of order, about not responding to the point of order, so I think on that side there's a matter of debate going on that could be ruled out of order as well. He's engaging in substantive conversation as opposed to really addressing.... He has every right to say something is not a point of order, which is a point of order, I would say. However, I'm making a point of order because he does not have the right to engage in a debate on substantive issues when something is raised as a point of order, even if it's ruled by you, Chair, not to be a point of order, and you have every right to rule that it is not a point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

If I could respond to the point of order, then, I was not responding to Ms. Bendayan's point of order. I was resuming my substantive commentary because I had the floor. It's quite legitimate for me to make substantive arguments about substantive issues when I have the floor, even if I am responding to points that were not points of order that were made as points of order. I agree that Ms. Bendayan's point of order was not a point of order. Insofar as I had the floor on a substantive matter, I was within my rights to make arguments on substantive matters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Genuis, you're moving into debate.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I believe he began his intervention by asking if he could respond to Ms. Bendayan's point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Yes, that's pretty telling in and of itself.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

That's exactly what you responded. You didn't respond saying that it's not a point of order. You actually acknowledged it was a point of order, and then responded to it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

That's correct, Mr. Oliphant.

Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I understand that I am now speaking not to any point of order, but I am speaking to the substantive motion. Thank you.

In the context of the substantive motion, Conservatives have never called for exemptions to sanctions that are paid for or are inflicting costs on the Russian government—

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Relevance, Mr. Chair...?

He's now responding to something that has nothing to do with the motion he has made. He's made a motion that doesn't mention any previous Conservative opposition days where they were attempting to get around waivers and all of those things about sanctions, so either he speaks to his motion relevantly or he lets us come to a vote on it. I'd be very happy to come to a vote on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I would just ask that you keep your remarks relevant to the motion.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Absolutely, Mr. Chair. I was responding in debate to a point that was made in debate and not found to be irrelevant, so although it wasn't a point of order, I think the point was relevant to debate, which is the question of the broader sanctions regime and the integrity of the sanctions regime.

Ms. Bendayan is right to attempt to make arguments about whether or not others are advocating consistently for the integrity of the sanctions regime. It just happens to be that we are, and that is why, in this case as well, as we have from the beginning, we are calling for the revocation of the special permit that allowed the export of Gazprom turbines to Russia.

The particulars of the motion are to add the additional—

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, is it allowed for a member to mislead the committee? I would like to read into the record then the Conservative opposition day motion that I was referring to. Is that procedurally allowed?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

It is a matter of privilege. Could you read what you found is misleading?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It's not a matter of privilege. It's also not a matter of order. It's a matter of debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Genuis, please proceed.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

As I was saying, our position has consistently been, from the beginning, that the permit should be revoked, but our motion adds additional information to the factual matrix demonstrating why it is important in particular now, number one, given the fact that Nord Stream 1 is clearly no longer supplying gas to Europe anyway due to the blast that created the hole in the pipeline. This is somehow being used by the government to imply that it's no longer an important issue because the pipeline isn't supplying gas anyway. However, as long as the exemption exists, it sets a very negative precedent.

The number one thing I heard in conversations from people in Ukraine about the government's decision to put in place the permit was about the message that it sent, the precedent that it set, because allies have different interests when it comes to sanctions and there is always some cost when it comes to imposing sanctions. We don't impose sanctions ignoring that there's a cost. Generally speaking, we do so recognizing that the cost is worth it in pursuit of a greater good than simply economic well-being. When when we have cases of nations that are allowing these kinds of permits to be granted, it sets a precedent whereby other nations will do the same thing.

This is what we heard from witnesses: When you start to weaken or fold on aspects of the integrity of that system, when you say, let's grant an exception here and let's grant an exception here, then other countries will start to make the same arguments and say, if Canada is granting this exception so that they can benefit from turbines that are, in fact, being worked on fairly close to the Minister of Foreign Affairs' own riding, then maybe other countries feel that they have the same licence to make the same kinds of decisions. This can then open a floodgate to the weakening of sanctions.

This is why revocation of this permit is extremely important.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

I think it is totally unbecoming of a member of the House of Commons to cast aspersions on a decision made by another member of the House of Commons with respect to being motivated by a position of where a factory might be, which is not in the minister's riding. It could be near it; I don't know.

However, I think it is actually a very serious matter to be suggesting that there's a conflict of interest. We have a Conflict of Interest Commissioner. If the member would like to raise this as a matter to go to the Conflict of Interest Commissioner, he may do so, but it is inappropriate for us to even entertain that conversation in a parliamentary committee, and it is unbecoming of the member.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Oliphant.

We go back to Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I did not, in fact, cast the aspersions that he suggested I cast, but I would hope he would be as rigorous in the future about some of the outrageous accusations that have been—

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I just noticed that it's 6:30, which is the end of our meeting.

I'm wondering how long we will allow this member to hijack the work of the committee and I would obviously, if you so choose, ask that we suspend the meeting in order to return to women's reproductive and health rights at our next meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Ms. Bendayan.

It is 6:30, and we were advised at the very start of this meeting that we had two hours for service, but before I suspend, allow me to thank the two witnesses. I wish I could say that I speak on behalf of all members of this committee in apologizing to you for having taken up your time and for not allowing you to—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You scheduled them without the consent of the committee, Mr. Chair. You scheduled them without the consent of the committee.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

There was consent of the committee. There was abstention by one member.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

—make yourselves available to the members.

[The meeting was suspended at 6:31 p.m., Wednesday, December 7, 2022]

[The meeting resumed at 2:10 p.m., Wednesday, January 18, 2023]