Foreign Affairs Committee on Jan. 25th, 2023

[Dr. Taline Papazian]

In general, there are two hypotheses to explain why the Russian forces present on the contact line between the Nagorno-Karabakh region and the rest of Azerbaijan do not intervene.

The first assumption is that they do not have the capacity to do so because Russia, busy losing ground in Ukraine and mired in its war in Ukraine, cannot open a “second front”.

The second hypothesis is that Russia does not want to, because it has economic interests today that coincide very strongly with those of Azerbaijan. As I said in my statement, on the one hand, Azerbaijan is one of the countries that allow Russia to lighten the financial burden of international sanctions, notably through the distribution of Russian oil that goes to Azerbaijan and then arrives in Europe.

On the other hand, the objective interests of Russia and Azerbaijan converge in exerting maximum pressure on Armenia to make concessions regarding Artsakh and this future corridor Azerbaijan would like to see, which would pass through southern Armenia and connect Azerbaijan to Nakhchivan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm afraid you're out of time. Thank you.

We now go to the next member.

Ms. McPherson, you have six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. I know this is a very emotional time. I know that all members of this committee are trying very hard to get more information and to get a better understanding, so thank you for being here and for sharing your perspectives. I am looking forward to the next panel and to getting more information on what is happening directly on the ground.

I think I'll start with you, if I can, Ms. Papazian.

One of the roles we have as parliamentarians and as members of this committee is to hear witnesses and hear testimony, and then provide recommendations to Parliament. From your perspective, what are the opportunities for peacebuilding between Armenia and Azerbaijan right now?

Are there any openings available at the community level? Does the United Nations have an important role? I know that this has not moved forward within the Security Council to date, but I'm wondering if you could comment on what your recommendations would be for the next steps for this.

[Dr. Taline Papazian]

In your work as members of Parliament, I would recommend that you use parliamentary diplomacy with the friendship groups of other countries that, for the time being, are still on the fence about the need to lift the Lachin corridor blockade. I am thinking in particular of the United Kingdom, Albania and the United Arab Emirates, which were warmly thanked by Azerbaijan and Russia after the UN Security Council meeting because they supported the reopening of the Lachin corridor.

Of course, parliamentary diplomacy with Russia is not possible at the moment. However, with the UK, Canada has a real role to play and it would be very valuable to be able to use this regular contact to go beyond mere declarations and really take action, because this can save lives today.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much for that.

When we look at that role that Canada can play, my next question for you is.... Lifting the blockade and calling for our allies to do that is important. We have tools within the United Nations so we can do that. The Security Council met on December 20, but to date, they have not released a statement or voted on a resolution.

Do you think there's more work that the United Nations will be doing and can be doing, going forward?

[Dr. Taline Papazian]

In any case, a resolution seems essential to me. A resolution could establish an air bridge to supply the people of Artsakh and reshape the peacekeeping forces. If this could be done in a sufficiently subtle way, it would ensure that the lives of the people there would not be further endangered. In this respect, we need to coordinate our efforts with the Russian interposition forces that are still on the ground, and are obviously unable or unwilling to do this job.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much for that, and thank you for your testimony, Ms. Papazian.

[Dr. Taline Papazian]

Thank you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Mirakian, I have a few questions for you as well.

Of course, as an Armenian Canadian, I know that the challenges you're facing, or the emotions that you're feeling, must be very difficult. I'm wondering if you could share with this committee what Armenian Canadians are feeling right now. What are they saying to you?

You talked a bit about the role of the Canadian government. We heard from your colleague about things that she recommends for the Canadian government, but I'd like your perspective on that as well, please.

[Shahen Mirakian]

I should say that there are two perspectives here.

One is the purely emotional, in the sense that this is your acquaintance, your family member or someone you've met and you've visited and who has visited you. It's someone you know very well. They're going through an extremely difficult time, and they're having real problems. Their electricity is cut off. It's very cold. There's no gas. There's not enough food. The schools are now closed because there's not enough electricity or food to allow them to be open. People are not going to work anymore. Economically, the situation is getting more and more dire. We obviously feel that in our skin. That's only natural.

I think that at a deeper level we also realize that there has been, at some level, a derogation of the duty of the international community to care for these people, and maybe we feel that we're not a priority, that we're not important, that we've been forgotten and that somehow these people are going to have to die to prove the point that the world can't look away. I think that's very sad for people.

We're a people used to being ignored and forgotten and so on. In the Armenian genocide and the previous massacres, there were a lot of people who looked away. They didn't care about what happened to the Armenian people until it was too late, and then people were scrambling to feed the refugees, as if they couldn't remember why they were refugees. I think that, when you feel that feeling again and the same helplessness, it's very difficult. It's more than just the feeling of seeing somebody you know in trouble. It's a feeling that your entire people do not matter on this planet and that you're not really part of the diversity.

I think the difference is that people should care. Canada should care. Canada has a role to play. Canada is a country that has a very strong moral compass, that believes in a rules-based international order and that believes in doing the right thing. It's a country that cares, and Canada should care. If you make this a priority, it makes a difference. I don't believe that the influence of Canada somehow ends at the borders of Azerbaijan. If we can collectively, as a people and as a government, come together and work on this, we will solve it. Canada is a powerful nation, and we have a real moral standing. We have a role to play.

That's it.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Madam McPherson.

We now go to the second round. We will have four minutes for the first member.

We'll now go to Mr. Hoback.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I guess Mr. Mirakian said it well: There's something that Canada can be doing. There's always a role that we can play internationally when we're respected internationally.

Pragmatically, though, what things should we be doing at this point in time that would actually make a difference?

[Shahen Mirakian]

If Canada works with its allies, makes statements, makes this a priority and then lets the people who are best placed make some of these changes happen, such as the European Union.... The European Union probably has the most moral suasion and ability, seeing as it has relations with Azerbaijan that are important to Azerbaijan.

If Canada were to say, “Look, this is a priority for Canada—we care about this and you should care about it, too, and we're going to do everything we can to make you care about this,” I think it would make a difference.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Ms. Papazian, how do you see what he's just said about Canada influencing the EU? How much influence does the EU need? How much influence does France need in order to take a more active role in this situation?

[Dr. Taline Papazian]

That's a very good question, actually, Mr. Hoback.

France has been quite vocal within the European Union, but as you know, the European Union is not a coherent unit when it comes to foreign policy. However, we have seen more and more engagement at the European Union level. There has been, for example, a civilian mission that has been sent to monitor the ceasefire between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

That's not in Artsakh, but it may be a first step towards bringing the volatility of the ceasefire in the region more on the radar of the international community. All your remarks prove how much information is lacking in the outside world to understand what is going on in Artsakh, even on the border between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and that's really a crucial point.

The second point, very quickly, is that Armenia is a member of the francophone countries, so that's also a place where maybe Canada, Armenia and France can meet, discuss and do things in common. That may be another platform.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

How do you see the trust in the Russian peacekeepers? Are they trusted by both sides? Are they trusted by the European Union? Is it actually a barrier to seeing more response out of Europe because it's Russian peacekeepers on the ground?

[Dr. Taline Papazian]

For people on the ground, Russian peacekeepers are like the only remaining shield between them and physical extinction. Even if they're not trusted, they are the only guarantee—minimal guarantee.

As for the European Union, no, the European Union doesn't trust the Russian peacekeepers. The European Parliament was very clear in their resolution yesterday. They even called for a replacement of Russian peacekeepers by OSCE peacekeepers.

Those are quite distinct sensibilities on the issue. Obviously, the impact on your immediate physical existence is not the same when you talk about one perspective or the other.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

How would the Armenians view that resolution? Would they view that positively? I won't ask you to speak on the Azerbaijanis, as I'm sure they'd have their opinions on it, but from an Armenian perspective, how do you see that they would view that?

[Dr. Taline Papazian]

For Armenians in Armenia, positively, but as for the Armenians in Artsakh, maybe we should ask the witnesses in the second panel.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Okay. That's fair.

With regard to a path forward, again, where do you see France and Europe taking this to the next level? What type of encouragement do they need? If we're there to motivate, for lack of a better word, what needs to be said?

[Dr. Taline Papazian]

Motivate for what, a task force?

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Yes, or for Europeans to actually take more action, for France to take more action—people who have more influence in the area and are closer to the area. What does Canada need to do to move that along?

[Dr. Taline Papazian]

Again, the first thing I would do would be to work within the parliaments of the different countries together in order to make that possible and to have a foot on the ground in order to know what is going on first-hand, because we're not only in a war here. The blockade is an act of war, but we're also in a war of information. Armenians have been losing that war of information for so long. Part of the reason is that the lack of information is critical, and in terms of international organizations, nobody is there except for the Red Cross. Nobody is seeing what is going on in Artsakh.

As I said, even the Armenian-Azerbaijan ceasefire, in place since 1994, was never monitored. There was never consistent, periodic information regularly on who was disrupting the ceasefire and sanctions for doing that. That would be a big plus.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Chair, just before I give up the last of my time—