Foreign Affairs Committee on Jan. 25th, 2023

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Do we know how many Russian soldiers are present at that blockade, if any?

[Shahen Mirakian]

The entire Russian peacekeeping contingent was agreed upon in the November 9, 2020, statement among Russia, Armenia and Azerbaijan to be 2,000 soldiers.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

That's along the entire border; is it not?

[Shahen Mirakian]

That's along the entire line of contact and the other area. What the exact tactical deployment is of Russian peacekeepers, amongst themselves, I'm not sure that anybody knows.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I'm asking because you suggested that, in the December 2 temporary blockade, Russian soldiers were overwhelmed by the people doing the blockade, which gave them the impetus to then establish the more permanent blockade that we've now seen go on for over a month. That's why I'm asking the question.

[Shahen Mirakian]

I don't think they were numerically overwhelmed. It was a matter of what the natural response to that was. Is it that you now come up guns blazing, or is there someone you can call and ask to remove it? I think they were overwhelmed strategically at that point in time, or tactically—however you want to describe that action. Once there was a realization that there was a tactical advantage, then anyone would take advantage of it.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I have a final, quick question.

What evidence do we have linking these protesters doing the blockade to the Government of Azerbaijan?

[Shahen Mirakian]

Again, the next panel will probably have much more concrete evidence.

I should say that, in general, all forms of civil society action in Azerbaijan tend to be tightly controlled. You don't spontaneously get protests in the country. This isn't me saying this about the level of control exercised by the government. It's Freedom House and Human Rights Watch, and so on.

The expectation is that, if this form of dissent is allowed or if this form of protest is allowed, then somehow the government has at least approved of it.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Chong. We now go to Mr. Oliphant.

You have six minutes, Mr. Oliphant.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are shockingly similar to Mr. Chong's. I have four areas I want to look at. One is the nature of the blockade. The second is the effect of the blockade. The third is the role of Russia on the road, and the fourth is the role of Azerbaijan as a government. The fifth one, since you say things with such certainty, would be how you get your information. I'm trying to understand, if there is a lack of telecommunication and a lack of connectivity, where you are getting your information.

With respect to the nature of the blockade, you've said you're not really able to describe it to us. I have seen the news reports, but with respect to the effect of the blockade, I'd like to get into that a little bit. This area of Azerbaijan is not an island. There is a road out, the Lachin road to Armenia, but there is also connectivity between other parts of Azerbaijan and that. Even with respect to that, the governments of both Armenia and Azerbaijan have said that there are supply trucks coming in from the International Committee of the Red Cross and that there have been people who have been ill who have been taken out of the region and across the road into Armenia.

Are those governments wrong? What is the evidence that is saying that the blockade is actually affecting what you're saying it's affecting?

[Shahen Mirakian]

Mr. Oliphant, I'm going to take all kinds of umbrage with what you just said. First of all, I don't consider this to be part of Azerbaijan, so these are not other parts of Azerbaijan to which it connects. You've sort of already decided the final status of the area and then asked me to reply to it, so that's a loaded question. That's the first point.

The second point is that if I were to say to you, Mr. Oliphant, that you could get deliveries of food only once a week and I would decide what they would be, you would say that's not any way to be living in your house and that you'd prefer to be able to get deliveries whenever you want and that you have the right to.... You may not have a legal right to it, but you certainly have a moral right to that.

If we're saying that the entire population of 120,000 in this area is dependent upon humanitarian relief from the International Committee of the Red Cross and that has to be negotiated with both these blockaders and the Russian peacekeepers, and it will be only from time to time, and the amount of humanitarian supplies coming through will be barely sufficient to maintain a minimum number of calories amongst the people who live here, including 30,000 children, I think you can say this is a blockade.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Is it true, as the Armenian and Azerbaijani governments have said, that the International Committee of the Red Cross is able to get shipments through, or is it just a minimum level? What is the nature of the effect of the blockade?

[Shahen Mirakian]

In general, with respect to those shipments we talk about, the Red Cross is bringing in humanitarian supplies mostly in the way of medicine or medical supplies, as far as I understand, which are necessary, and then transporting patients who need medical care out to Armenia proper.

The food supplies coming in are mostly being brought in by the Russian peacekeeping contingent, as far as I understand. Some of those food supplies are obviously to feed their own people on the ground, and then some of those food supplies, the additional amount, can go towards feeding other people. Again, we're talking about somewhere around 400 tonnes of traffic going through, most of it being food supplies, into a situation in which there's none. Again, I'm just like....

I'm wondering if you think this is sort of a Potemkin village of empty markets so that the Armenians can somehow get sympathy, or if there are people who are actually hungry there. As far as everyone is concerned and as far as the Red Cross is saying, there are hungry people there. There are literally people who are not getting enough food there. The reason patients are being transported out by the Red Cross and not by regular ambulance when they're supposed to be, and only on a schedule decided by somebody else, is that there is no other way to get them out.

I don't think this is some sort of play acting for sympathy by the Armenian population of Nagorno-Karabakh. There's an actual need for food, medical care and medical supplies, which is maybe being met at a level well below what you'd find acceptable as a minimum in Canada.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I'm simply asking—and I'm not saying there's any other ulterior motive for my questioning—what the state of play is in the region. What is the state of nutrition and supplies? We do have information that food, medicine and other essential goods are getting in. If not enough of it is, we need to know that.

[Shahen Mirakian]

It's not enough—

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Okay. We also need to know what the source of that information is. Who is on the ground, who is reporting and how are they reporting?

[Shahen Mirakian]

You will be speaking in the next panel to somebody who is in the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh right now. He will tell you exactly how much food his children are getting.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Okay. We will ask him then.

[Shahen Mirakian]

How much more information do you need?

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I think we'd need a lot of information, actually, because we're trying to understand the nature of the humanitarian situation. That is exactly what we're trying to do: to understand it. We will ask—

[Shahen Mirakian]

There was a diplomat from Canada in Armenia last Wednesday, a week ago today. Did he go there to get this information that you're desperately wanting? Is it—

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Yes, Dr. Fry—

[Shahen Mirakian]

No, no, but I'm wondering—