Foreign Affairs Committee on May 9th, 2023

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I appreciate that clarification, Ms. McPherson.

There are avenues of relief available to the Federal Court. It provides judicial oversight in the exercise of the functions under SEMA, as well as under IRPA, which again will now function as a turnkey system to ensure inadmissibility.

I would come back to the central premise of your question, which is what we are doing to safeguard against the potential of inadvertent overreach here, especially with regard to vulnerable individuals who may wish to claim status as either asylum seekers or as refugees.

I am confident that this new bill will not in any way diminish the existing pathways to protecting those rights where they exist under IRPA and the law.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

The refugee sector is not as confident as you are, Minister.

Will you be open to amendments to this legislation?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

As you've heard me say many times before, Ms. McPherson, I'm always prepared to work with you and this committee and other parliamentarians.

If we think there is a realistic and practical way in which to either provide clarification on the existing language or to strengthen it, I will keep an open mind about that.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you. We now go to the second round.

For the second round, each member is provided with four minutes.

Mr. Genuis, you are up next.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, you had strong words for CSIS on the weekend.

Do you have confidence in CSIS, and do you blame CSIS for the fact that Mr. Chong was not informed about a threat against his family two years ago?

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair, on relevance.

Given that our stated agenda for this meeting is the consideration of Bill S-8, I would like you to consider that. Thank you.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Chair, can I respond to the point of order?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Yes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Chair, I think the minister's confidence or lack thereof in CSIS is critically important, given that part of Bill S-8 is responding to assessments that are made by our security agencies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

I'd like to urge all members to keep within the ambit of the bill before us.

Mr. Genuis, please proceed.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, you heard the question. Would you like to answer it or not?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'm quite content to answer it. Again, I appreciate why you're asking these questions, despite the fact that we are here principally to talk about Bill S-8.

Of course I have confidence in CSIS. These are individuals who work to protect our national security every day.

I also would point out that your question used language like “blaming”. The only people I think we need to be united in holding accountable are the hostile actors who are attempting to undermine our democratic institutions.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thanks, Minister. I'm going to jump in there.

I think there's probably agreement, though, that something went wrong two years ago. If you think “blame” is too strong a word, that's fair enough, but who do you think carries this error?

Someone was not informed about a threat against their family. Was the error made by CSIS? Was the error made by the minister? Was the error made by the chief of staff?

Who made the error?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I think we have to be constantly vigilant to make sure that our internal governance, including directives around what gets briefed directly in person to ministers who are responsible, including and up to the Prime Minister, reflect the state of the landscape when it comes to foreign interference.

Mr. Genuis, you've put a lot of time into studying this subject matter. I think you would acknowledge that the threat landscape has evolved significantly in the last few years alone. It probably is evolving just about every day. Making sure that our directives align to those realities is important to ensure accountability.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Minister. I'm going to move on, although I don't know that I fully got the response there.

At the end of my last round, I asked you specifically if your chief of staff or deputy would have seen the 2021 intelligence report on foreign interference. Could you clarify? Did the minister or the chief of staff see that report?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Again—only because you put the question directly and personally to me—I was not in this portfolio in July 2021, when the report was alleged to have been...it has been reported in public. Again, we are making sure that our directives reflect the landscape as it exists today, so that if there are reports that touch on parliamentarians, MPs and the like, involving foreign interference, they will now come directly to me and the Prime Minister.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay, so I guess the answer is that you don't know if the deputy or the chief of staff read the report. You said it's general practice for the deputy or the chief of staff to read these reports, but in the particular case, you're saying that you weren't the minister, so you don't know. Is that—

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

On a point of order, I would go back to my first point of order in terms of the relevance to Bill S-8. I'm trying to understand how this will help our committee study with respect to Bill S-8. I don't yet see that.

I'm not sure, Mr. Chair, if the questions should be more focused around Bill S-8 or if we're just talking about what's in the news today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Zuberi.

Again, I just want to remind all the members to remain focused on Bill S-8 and to make their questions relevant to the bill at hand.

Go ahead, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

In my final minute, Minister, I just want to pick up on something you said, so it's the matter at hand that we're dealing with. It's on the directive that you have issued to bring foreign interference targeting elected officials to your attention. Does that apply to provincial and municipal elected officials as well, or just parliamentarians?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I would certainly start by prioritizing the members of Parliament with whom we work in the House of Commons, but I also want to assure you, Mr. Genuis, that we're looking at other levels of government. In fact, CSIS has provided briefings—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

This is specifically in terms of the directive. I'm almost out of time here. Does the directive cover provincial and municipal elected officials?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We will ensure that we are briefed directly on parliamentarians. We'll make additional refinements as may be needed, but I'll also—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay—