Foreign Affairs Committee on May 9th, 2023

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Will those making recommendations about sanctions or inadmissibility always receive those intelligence assessments? Is that one of the things that...? As minister, you will make those determinations around sanctions. Will you directly review intelligence assessments related to those sanctions?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Can you clarify your question, Mr. Genuis? What information are you asking about and to support which decision?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm asking about the decisions around sanctions related to the bill. If you're making a determination about a sanction, would you ask CSIS to provide you with the intelligence assessment directly, or would you rely on summaries in that case?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I may rely on summaries. If I have additional questions about the source information that went into the summary, including the original intelligence report, I will certainly ask questions, yes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

One primary area in which we've seen motivation for sanctions is where individuals or entities are involved in foreign interference activities here in Canada. In relation to that, I want to ask you if, in 2021, there was information in an intelligence assessment about Canadian MPs' being targeting by the PRC. Was that information in any intelligence assessments in 2021?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

As you know, I very much appreciate your question. I have to be guided by the law, under the Security of Information Act, in terms of what I can and cannot disclose. There are strict constraints on that.

We have created forums in which we can declassify that information or allow parliamentarians and/or officials to have access to that information so that it can be discussed with Canadians. I would cite public reports that have come from NSICOP and NSIRA, in which we are able to navigate those types of questions.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

If an intelligence assessment contained information, your expectation would be that it was read by the chief of staff and the deputy minister.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

We are here on Bill S-8 today. I just want to make sure that we're getting evidence that relates to Bill S-8 at this committee, so that we can advance our understanding and even propose amendments around the legislation. I'm just trying to listen for how this actually pertains to Bill S-8 specifically. I would ask the members, through you, to focus their questions on Bill S-8.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Zuberi.

I'd like to remind every member that we should try to focus our questions on the issue at hand, which is Bill S-8.

Mr. Genuis, we did stop the clock. You still have a minute and 12 seconds remaining.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If information in relation to individuals involved in foreign interference, potentially, who should be sanctioned as a result of that foreign interference.... If that had been an intelligence assessment in 2021, your expectation is that the chief of staff, as well as the deputy minister, would have seen it and that you would have been provided with a summary of that information. Is that correct?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Let me just verify, because I think you're referring to the recent events involving your colleague, Mr. Chong.

You heard the Prime Minister indicate that there is a new directive that has been issued to CSIS to ensure that if there are allegations or reports around foreign interference that involve parliamentarians, they come directly to the attention of the Prime Minister, as well as to me. I assure you and all of the colleagues here that we will adhere to that directive.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Prior to that directive, you still think the deputy minister and the chief of staff would have seen that information. Is that correct?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Look, it's a very important question that you're asking.

I think it's also important to remind members of this committee that CSIS and other intelligence agencies make determinations and judgment calls on what intelligence is actionable and therefore—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It's a question that deserves an answer, though. Would the chief of staff or the deputy have seen it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Genuis—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

We next go to Mr. Zuberi.

You have six minutes.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today, Mr. Minister.

Also, thank you to your staff and team for being here.

I'll pick up on the line that was really touched upon by my colleague opposite.

First off, before doing so, I'd like to acknowledge that I respect immensely the work that you and other ministers are doing to protect Canada from foreign interference and to protect our democracy.

That being said, I'd like to lean into the questions around foreign interference and ask how Bill S-8, in particular, will help to protect our country from foreign interference.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Zuberi, thank you for your advocacy on matters especially pertaining to human rights, and for standing against authoritarian dictatorships that are oppressive. I want to take a moment to express my gratitude to you.

In addition to the bill that is before you, which will help to align the work that our colleagues at Global Affairs do in listing individuals under SEMA and the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, there are existing authorities that deal with, for example, espionage. By virtue of those authorities under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, an individual can be deemed inadmissible if there are grounds to believe they have committed an act in relation to espionage.

This bill will further close any existing loopholes if, for example, there are specific individuals who have been listed under the Special Economic Measures Act, or SEMA, and align that in express language under IRPA, so that they are deemed inadmissible, but only after an analysis has been undertaken by Global Affairs.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

This important legislation will help to further protect Canada from foreign interference. Is that right?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Absolutely.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Canada works in partnership with many countries, the Five Eyes, the G7 and other countries. Could you elaborate a bit on how Bill S-8 contributes to what other countries are doing in this domain? Can you speak about how other countries are addressing the issue that Bill S-8 puts forth, and how that fits in with the scheme of things?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I will defer to officials who have undertaken an analysis of exactly what kind of legislative or statutory schemes are in place among our democratic allies, but I believe that Bill S-8 will generally align with the approaches that have been taken by like-minded countries.

The point is to make sure there is no disconnect, that if individuals have been named under SEMA, because they are facilitating the transgression of human rights or are in some way supporting financially or otherwise the acts of an authoritarian regime, for example, Russia, as it continues its illegal incursion and war in Ukraine, those individuals then become inadmissible to Canada by operation of the IRPA statute.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

This legislation touches individuals. It also touches entities in terms of the sanctions regime. It touches not only individuals but also entities.

Is there any impact on the shareholders of entities that might be sanctioned, when it comes to Bill S-8 or the broader legislation?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Again, I will defer to officials on what exactly the impact analysis is with regard to potential impacts on shareholders.

I want to clarify, because you specifically said the word “entity” is not in the bill, and that is for good reason. We believe we have crafted language that is precise and clear, which allows us to focus on individuals who have been named under SEMA. This is the best way to align the objectives of SEMA with IRPA.