Foreign Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2023

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

It might also be the effects…

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Since the decision to sanction these individuals was made, but you have no information confirming they were sanctioned, the question is: who can tell us whether or not they were sanctioned?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

I think they were. It's possible, however, that they don't have any assets in Canada.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Can you check and send the results to the committee?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron. We're a minute over.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'm just asking if they can check and send the results to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Bergeron, we're a minute over your time.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

In any case, I asked the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We next go to Ms. McPherson.

You have six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here and answering our questions.

I do have to say that, listening to some of the testimony so far, I'm deeply concerned that the enforcement of the sanctions is a problem. Putting folks on a list and then not enforcing it is not an effective sanctions regime.

I'm going to start with some questions for our guests from the RCMP.

In 2016, at this committee, the RCMP indicated that they had only one successful conviction under SEMA since 1992. The RCMP superintendent at the time, Steve Nordstrum, said:

The RCMP has limited resources.... [W]e try to prioritize to address the highest priority projects and crimes, predominantly to prevent the loss of life and investigate terrorist acts that could lead to the loss of life, or other such items that do receive a higher priority rating.

What I understand from that is that investigations into sanctions violations at the time were not considered a priority.

I'd like to know how many convictions there have been under SEMA or other sanctions legislation since 2017. I'd like to know whether staff numbers for enforcement of sanctions have increased since that time. I'd also like to know if you would agree with your predecessor that the RCMP has limited resources and has chosen to prioritize other types of crimes.

[Chief Superintendent Richard Burchill, Director General, Financial Crimes, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Chair.

In relation to the resources, I wouldn't say we have limited resources. I would say that we give sanctions investigations high priority. They're a priority for us. They're a priority for our regime partners. We use the resources that we have in place to support the sanctions regime to the best of our ability.

In relation to other priorities, it probably hasn't changed since 2016, in that we in federal policing, like any other organization, have competing priorities. That's not to say that, number one, we don't apply the resources that we have within the financial crime program to exert our ability in the sanctions investigations. We do that, but on a second level, we would always welcome the opportunity for increased resources and the ability to further enhance our capabilities in this area.

Does that answer the question?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm sorry, but I have such limited time.

I asked how many staff you have and whether or not the staff numbers for the enforcement of sanctions have increased since 2016.

Also, could you provide how many convictions there have been under SEMA or other sanctions legislation since 2017? Perhaps this is something you can provide in writing to the committee afterwards.

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

There hasn't been a conviction since the last appearance.

What's important to realize is that the use of sanctions has only increased dramatically in the last year and a half. What we've observed is an increase in investigations on sanction evasion. Again, this is criminal in nature. It is for the RCMP and the CBSA to conduct these investigations.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

There have been no convictions since 2016. Is that accurate?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

Yes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

My next question, before I run out of time, is for our guests from CBSA.

In August, it was revealed that CBSA disrupted an attempt to send materials to Russia in violation of sanctions imposed following the invasion of Ukraine. This was at the port of Montreal. The shipment was one of more than a dozen with “suspected links to Russian entities” that the Canada Border Services Agency said resulted in action.

Can you provide to this committee in writing details about the number of attempted shipments seized by CBSA in the last two years that were in violation of the sanctions? Can you tell us that and then, if possible, provide an estimate of how many you think have been missed?

[Fred Gaspar]

Yes, absolutely. We'll certainly commit to getting back in writing with precise details.

I can tell you now that the CBSA has risk-assessed over 700 shipments since the provisions came into effect. These are shipments with a declared end destination of Russia. Of those, 40 formal detentions have ensued, including a number of seizures and shipments that were then withdrawn from export.

There's definitely more work to be done. There's definitely more that we can always do in that regard, but it is very much an activist posture that we are taking with regard to this mandate.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you for that. I would also like to know how many shipments there are to other destinations with Russia as the end-user—so, not just directly to Russia but to other areas.

I have one last question. I hope I have some time to get to this.

We have heard from people, particularly with regard to Iran and Haiti, who want to be able to provide information to the Government of Canada about folks who have been sanctioned—assets, that sort of information. What would that process look like? Whom would they contact? How would they get in touch with the Government of Canada if they had information on the sanctions regime?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

I can speak to sanction evasion. We have received complaints from Canadians and others about people who evade sanctions. As I said, we have an increase in the number of files and investigations we do on sanctions evasion. Definitely, anybody with information on people evading the sanctions regime can contact the RCMP to provide their information as far—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

If there are people who should be added to the sanctions list, is that also to be provided to the RCMP?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

No. As I said earlier, Global Affairs is the lead in deciding who gets listed and designated on sanctions. They would be the contact point for this.

As I think Mr. Lévêque alluded to, they rely on public information. The RCMP is not involved in that process.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

Now we go to the second round, and we go to Mr. Hoback.

Mr. Hoback, you have five minutes.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here.

I'm just curious. You say you work really well together. I'm glad to hear that. When there's a problem, who calls the meeting?

[Richard St Marseille]

Speaking with respect to the inadmissibility consequences of sanctions, if there is an issue with a listing, it would be the CBSA that would convene the meeting—