Evidence of meeting #74 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was regime.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
On Monday, we were discussing the fact that the government tends to outsource its sanctions regime to the banking and private sectors, without giving any indication of expectations, which may explain the variable effectiveness of the enforcement of these sanctions.
I'll come back to you, Ms. Marineau. I didn't think I'd have any more time, so I'm very happy about that.
In February 2022 in the French newspaper Marianne, you stated that sanctions don't stop war. They may not stop war, but we must at least ensure that they'll have an impact on the sanctioned countries.
I'd like to come back to your earlier answer, which was very interesting. You yourself admitted that there were black knights who weren't going to comply with the sanctions regime, despite all the incentives that the international community could deploy.
So I come back to my basic question: how do we get around these black knights, who undermine the effectiveness of sanctions?
PhD Candidate, International Relations, As an Individual
As I said earlier, the best way to do this is to try to have as many partners as possible to apply the same sanctions regime, or to try to influence those who don't apply sanctions so that, at the very least, they aren't participating in the sanctioned country's war effort.
In the case of Russia, as I was saying, China is currently walking a very fine line of neutrality. It isn't participating directly in the war effort. It isn't selling weapons, nor is it selling parts needed to repair or produce tanks or warplanes. However, it's helping Russia by signing economic agreements. Russia has had to replace the European market and, since then, China has become its leading economic partner.
So there's no right answer to getting around black knights. The more countries that apply the same sanctions regime, the more effective the sanctions will be and the greater an impact they'll have. Sanctions don't stop wars, but they have an impact, and it's important to have means in place to measure those effects.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you.
I'd like to ask these questions of Dr. Martin.
I know you said that it's very difficult for you to get the answers in the very short time that we give you, so whatever you can submit to our analysts would be fantastic, because your comments on the legality of the sanctions regime that we are putting in place, that has been proposed, are really important.
This committee was in Brussels last year, and the EU was looking very closely to see what Canada was doing with regard to the fees and repurposing. I'm just wondering where we should look next. What are the other pieces that this committee needs to look at in terms of how we determine the legality of that? How do we do this work? How do we make sure that this is possible, or is it possible, in your opinion?
You have a minute.
Professor, Law, As an Individual
The short answer to the last question is yes, I think it is possible. I think that the committee could rely on more international law experts on the one hand, because there's an international law aspect to this, and there's also a domestic law aspect. I really do think that Canadian individuals who are designated under these lists have rights issues that implicate domestic law. I do think that having legal experts advise you on the various aspects...and there are a lot of moving parts, a lot of different legal regimes, whether we're looking at human rights or whether we're looking at non-intervention rights. These are different aspects of international law, all of which I think do need to be considered.
As I said in my opening statement, I just would like to see the Canadian government be more mindful and be more informed of these international principles as they develop their sanctions regime. I'm not suggesting that sanctions regimes are necessarily going to be unlawful, but they do need to be informed by, and based on, an understanding of Canada's international legal obligations.
Just to refer very quickly back to something that Mr. Oliphant said, it's not necessarily that if you are in violation of international law or perceived to be in violation of international law that there's going to be some sanction against Canada or that there's going to be a prosecution of Canada, but the perception of illegality is hugely important, given that Canada stands as a champion of the international rule of law. If Canada is perceived to be violating the very principles that it's trying to enforce or is vulnerable to accusations of hypocrisy is really important, in my view, and that's why I think that taking into consideration the international legal principles is vitally important.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
At this point, allow me to thank our witnesses. This has been extraordinarily helpful, and we're very grateful.
I should also start by apologizing for the delay when our meeting commenced, but again, as soon as this report is drafted, we will certainly forward a copy to you.
Thank you very much.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Members, we will now be going into committee business. There's no one online, so we don't have any delays, correct?
[Proceedings continue in camera]