Evidence of meeting #74 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was regime.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Okay.
I have some quick questions.
Ms. Charron, you left an impression that I want to make sure you have a chance to correct, if you want to correct it, with respect to the difference between the autonomous sanction regime and the UN sanctions regime, as though we weren't sanctioning those from the UN.
We now have 15 regimes at the UN—country and individual regimes—which on the GAC website are pointed to but not listed, because of the complexity of the five or six different ways those happen. You sounded as though we aren't sanctioning Guinea-Bissau or any of the other 14 countries that we are sanctioning. Did you want to make sure that you are clear and that even though they're not listed on our autonomous regimes, they are effectively being sanctioned the same way?
5:25 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
No, what I'm saying is that the Global Affairs website has all sanctions—the UN sanctions, the autonomous ones, and the freezing of assets. Guinea-Bissau is not listed, because Global Affairs says it's only an inadmissibility sanction travel ban, and they don't do travel bans. That's another department, so they're not going to list it on the Global Affairs website.
For Canadians, how are they to understand the totality of the sanctions if they have to know that you need to go to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and cross-list it with UN Security Council resolution 248 of 2012 to find the five names that are listed for Guinea-Bissau, which we are obligated to do? Global Affairs won't list Guinea-Bissau as a targeted state. That's what I'm saying.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
But there is a direct link to the UN website to do that. I want it to be really clear that we follow rigorously all UN sanctions. They're not volitional. We do not choose involuntarily or voluntarily. We follow every single one of them.
5:30 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Yes; however, how are Canadians to know? That's the point I'm trying to make. At the end of the day, sanctions first and foremost are enforced by Canadians' understanding them. If they are not listed on the Global Affairs website, then how are we to know?
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
We could probably argue that point because of the complexity of those 15 regimes that now have 11 organizing committees, etc. We could get into that and whether it would be effective to simply list something or whether they need more information than that.
I want to go to Ms. Marineau.
I really found your nine points very effective. I've read them as well. I wanted to congratulate you for helping us, because what is happening for me is that no matter what the problem is in Canada, we say, “Put in a sanction.” I hear it all the time. If we're to follow your work on this, I think what you're saying is to be judicious.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Can you comment on the complexity in sanctions that you are pointing to in those nine—perhaps intended or unintended—consequences?
5:30 p.m.
PhD Candidate, International Relations, As an Individual
Yes.
We have limited means to demonstrate to a country that we're taking a stand against its policy. Sanctions are the one means we use. In very simple terms, we essentially have the following options: We do nothing, we wage war or we impose economic and diplomatic measures. Sanctions often—
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you. I'm sorry; we're going to have to go to the next member. You have my apologies.
We go now to MP Bergeron. You have a minute and a half.
September 27th, 2023 / 5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
A few days ago, Professor Thomas Juneau told us that sanctioned states had set up mechanisms to sidestep the various sanctions, including going through what you call black knights, namely countries that undermine the cohesion of coordinated international sanctions.
How can we fight these black knights who enable sanctioned states to sidestep sanctions?
5:30 p.m.
PhD Candidate, International Relations, As an Individual
I'd invert the question: Rather than seeking to limit the black knights, what can we do to encourage countries to impose sanctions?
In the specific case of Russia, the sanctions regime has been imposed by a huge number of countries. It's caused certain countries, like Monaco and Switzerland, to set aside their historical policy of neutrality. To the extent possible, it's an effective sanctions regime because there are so many allies.
Can we ask China to impose sanctions on Russia? That would be extremely hard to do. China is walking a very fine line of neutrality. It doesn't want to encourage the conflict in Ukraine or destabilize Russia. Nor does it want to sour its relations with the West.
It isn't necessarily about limiting the black knights. We should try to urge other partners to get behind the sanctions.
I'm not sure how well that answers your question.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Unfortunately, I have no more speaking time to take this any further.
Thank you very much.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you.
Dr. Charron, you spoke about the fact that we have had a lack of transparency on how our sanction regime has been implemented. You just spoke recently about things not being available on the website and about not being able to get that information.
We did have an announcement of $76 million that would go to this area. That was last year. Of course, you've been raising the alarm for a long time. We had a study that came out with recommendations in 2017. You testified in 2016. Since the government's announcements last year of new funding for the sanctions bureau at Global Affairs Canada, have you noticed any difference?
5:35 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Well, I am noticing frequently asked questions coming up.
For example, our autonomous sanctions list is so clunky to search. Its targets are listed based on the order in which GAC puts them on a list, as opposed to alphabetically. It's things like that. The list may work for the government, but it's not working for the people who need to access the information to enforce the sanctions.
5:35 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Realistically, we need to get moving on this and it's well overdue, and this is not just one government. It's been 15 years. This is a long time. A year has gone by after that $76 million, yet we haven't really seen investment in folks who could be the experts in this area, the people who could do the enforcement, training, guidance and that sort of work. I assume you would see that as problematic.
5:35 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
It's complicated.
We're hemorrhaging people from the public service. You're asking people who do the work of 10 people, “Oh, could you just add this on too, and create a new sanctions bureau?” I have a lot of sympathy for public servants. I know this is difficult.
Canada, generally, is terrible with procurement. If we need to buy software, it's going to take more than a year.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
5:35 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Epp Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses.
One cannot solve a problem that one cannot measure. I heard that in your testimony, Ms. Charron.
Specifically, can you point to one country that is appropriately measuring and reporting on the effectiveness of their sanctions regime?
5:35 p.m.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Yes, and I would encourage you to ask Craig Martin about this as well.
The EU and the U.K. provide yearly reports. They're not in depth; it's broad-strokes information that helps correct course. The U.S. also provides all sorts of reports on their sanctions regime. It is normally done by our allies, and I'm sure we could do it too.
