Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2023

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Chair, I'll say thank you again to the witnesses for being here and sharing your expertise with us.

I want to ask about the situation in the West Bank and in Jerusalem. We are seeing increased settler attacks on Palestinians and IDF killings of Palestinian civilians, including children. Settler attacks have unfortunately become a feature of the occupation, and Canada rarely if ever says anything about them.

Is the increase in settler attacks a factor in the slow pace of assisted departures for Canadians in the West Bank, and if not, could you explain to me the difference in the speed between assisted departures from Israel and from the West Bank?

[Julie Sunday]

We moved quickly on all fronts in this as the conflict escalated. We watched our numbers increase in Israel in terms of those who required assistance, and we moved quickly to address that. We also moved very quickly to be able to support people in the West Bank and Gaza.

In the case of the West Bank, it took a bit longer because it was a more complex environment for us to be able to support people. That said, Canada was the first Five Eyes country to assist departures out of the West Bank—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Can you just give me a bit more information about why it's a complicated place? That's what I'm asking about. What are those complications?

[Julie Sunday]

There are multiple complications, in the sense of.... Ramallah is one part of the West Bank, and certainly we moved quickly. The first bus of Canadians and also some Australians out of Ramallah happened for those were individuals who were in that area because we were able to move really quickly.

There are Canadians across the West Bank, so we've been working to support them. There are challenges because of checkpoints and other issues. We've been working closely with a group called COGAT, the Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories. It's an Israeli group, because we have to be sure that we are alerting them of our movements so that they're able to support us. They, of course, liaise with the IDF.

We also work closely with our colleagues at the UN who are responsible for security. We have very good relationships with them. They are on the ground. We are sharing information all the time to be able to ensure that Canadians can move effectively in the West Bank. We have transported people from Bethlehem to the border with Jordan, where we have our mission there collecting people.

One additional complexity in the case of the West Bank is that we also have IRCC officials with us on site in Ramallah so that they are able to do approvals of family members. That can take a bit of extra time, but we've been doing that really quickly. We've been able to move even mixed families across the border with Jordan, and that's something that is great. In the early days, we needed to do our homework to ensure we were able to do that safely without creating issues for people. We wanted to ensure their security and safety across that whole movement, which was and is quite complex.

We now understand it quite well, which is why our allies are asking us for advice on how to do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We'll next go to MP Chong for five minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing.

I have a question for Madam Flanagan Whalen.

Thank you for taking the time to testify.

You mentioned several times that the Government of Canada calls on all parties to uphold international humanitarian law—in other words, the laws of armed conflict. In light of this, do you assess that any of the parties in this war—in other words, Hamas, the IDF and others—have violated international humanitarian law?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

I'm not in a position to make that judgment.

We are watching a fast-moving situation on the ground. We are encouraging all parties to do what they need to do under international humanitarian law to respect the laws of conflict and to ensure the protection of civilians.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

Is the Government of Canada calling for a ceasefire?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

The Government of Canada has not called for a ceasefire specifically. The Government of Canada has encouraged parties to the conflict to follow their obligations under international humanitarian law and to ensure humanitarian access, particularly into Gaza, given the desperate conditions there.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

The government has stated that the State of Israel has the right to defend itself within the laws of armed conflict.

Does the government accept that a state's right to defend itself includes a state's right to prosecute the war at a pace and time of its choosing—in other words, to decide when the military action will begin, when it will end and whether there will be a ceasefire?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

We have indicated that the Government of Israel needs to abide by the rules of war and international law. Those are questions that need to be responded to. There are questions around military strategy that the Government of Israel will take on itself but that we're certain will be closely watched from outside.

We will remind Israel, as well, that there needs to be a “day after” in this. There needs to be a plan for what comes next. What we want is to get on the path to a sustainable peace here, and we need to think about what the day after looks like.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

The government accepts that a state party's right to defend itself under the laws of armed conflict includes a state party's right to prosecute a war—to begin a war, to end a war—within the parameters of international humanitarian law and the laws of armed conflict at the pace and time of its choosing.

Does the government accept that this is included in the inherent right under article 51, I believe it is, of the Charter of the United Nations and within the parameters of international humanitarian law?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

We have been emphasizing those parameters of international humanitarian law and international law. That is what we've been saying: that they must act within those parameters that are established.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs stated that the explosion at the Gaza hospital was “illegal”. In other words, it was counter to international law. What did the Government of Canada mean by that?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

I'm sorry, but I'm not aware of that statement. I do know that there is a statement—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

She said very publicly on Twitter, on X, that the explosion at the Gaza hospital was “illegal”. What did the Government of Canada mean by that?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

The Government of Canada's most recent statement on this, which came out on Saturday from the Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence, indicated that the assessment we have made, with a high degree of certainty, indicates that this came from the Palestinian side.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Yes, I read that. The statement I believe said that it was the result of a rocket fired from within Gaza, which would imply that it was fired by a terrorist group within Gaza. That, combined with the word “illegal”, would suggest that the Government of Canada has assessed that the rocket firing was deliberate and not proportionate. That's what logically those two statements combined would lead one to conclude. That's why I asked what the Government of Canada meant when it said that the explosion at the Gaza hospital was illegal.

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

The events are moving very quickly, and it's important for us to be able to step back and take a pause, look at the evidence—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Agreed, but I'm wondering, in light of that, if the department or the minister will issue a clarification to her assertion that the explosion at the Gaza hospital was illegal.

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

The statement released on Saturday indicates what we believe happened with a high degree of certainty, based on the intelligence we've seen, based on our analysis of the blast zone and based on what we can see.

I think this is the most definitive statement we've made at this point about what we think happened there and I think this needs to be taken as the most definitive explanation of where the government sits on this—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Well, I think there's a great deal of confusion, because of the earlier statement.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Chong, I'm afraid you're over time.

We next go to MP Oliphant for five minutes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I find myself emotional on this issue. I thank you for your professionalism.

I have three things I'd like to accomplish.

The first is thanking the officials. As most people know, I was very involved in repatriation during COVID, and we learned a lot of lessons. You have acted brilliantly. I want, on our behalf, or at least on my behalf, to thank you publicly for the incredible leadership you've provided in helping not only Canadians but also the world. Thank you, Ms. Sunday and team, particularly. I know you co-opted hundreds of people from other parts of the department, and they haven't slept. I took two days off this weekend and didn't look at the news, because I needed a break. You don't get a break.

I also thank the diplomatic teams in Ramallah and Tel Aviv, as well as in Jordan, Egypt and everywhere, else for their professionalism in perhaps the worst crisis we have seen since 9/11, probably. It's a disaster. Thank you.

The second thing I want to focus on are your comments, Ms. Flanagan, about Iran.

It seems to me that this rogue state has a band around it that is potentially engaged in this, whether it is directly with Hamas—which it appears to be, but I don't know—or with Hezbollah in perhaps causing instability in Lebanon, which we are watching very closely, or with action in Yemen, Iraq and Syria.

Is there any intelligence you can provide to this committee on what we're watching? I don't want you to be hypothetical. What do we know? It seems to me that this, again, is elevating our concerns about Iran.

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

Indeed, the regional context of this is extremely challenging. I think we, with our international partners, are working very hard on questions around de-escalation there.

We don't have any evidence that Iran was directly involved in the terrorist attacks of October 7. That said, we remain gravely concerned about Iran's destabilizing actions across the entire Middle East region, and we're watching very closely.

That fragile situation on the border with Lebanon is especially concerning. We know that Israel and Hezbollah have been exchanging fire over the last couple of weeks and there have been a limited number of casualties on either side. I think there is good awareness on both sides of what escalation might mean. Certainly, we remain in close contact with the Government of Israel to understand their perspectives on this. We have a great number of Canadian citizens in Lebanon who are extremely concerned about the situation there, evidently.

We need to be able to plan adequately for anything that might come of that, apart from our broader concerns about stability and security.