Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 28th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Honourable colleagues, I call meeting No. 8 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development to order.

Before we hear from representatives of Global Affairs Canada, I want to begin by acknowledging that the subject of today's meeting—Russia's military assault on Ukraine—is a heartbreaking and distressing situation, particularly for the victims of this invasion and the many Canadians who have close ties of family and friendship with the people of Ukraine.

I know that I speak for committee members—regardless of party affiliation—when I say that we are fully seized with the events in Ukraine and are mindful of the stakes involved. We understand the emergency debate this morning at the United Nations General Assembly.

We stand in full solidarity with Ukraine—a peaceful, democratic and sovereign nation—and close partner of Canada. Every day, we are seeing new frightening images, but we are also hearing incredible stories of Ukrainian resilience and bravery. Russia has brazenly attacked Ukraine without justification or provocation.

We are united in our condemnation of this invasion, which is both a violation of international law and a direct challenge to the rules-based order on which global peace and prosperity depend.

On this point, colleagues, I would like to thank the vice-chairs and the NDP member of the committee for their work in putting together a press release that this committee issued last week affirming our united stance against Russian aggression.

As usual, to ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Interpretation is available though the globe icon at the bottom of your screen. For members participating in person, keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols. Please note that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

Before taking the floor, please wait for me to recognize you by name. While you have the floor, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, please put your microphone on mute.

I will remind you that all comments by members and our officials and witnesses today should be addressed through the chair.

Colleagues, just before we get started, it is my understanding that there are discussions among members of the committee to discuss a motion at the end of this meeting. I would like to flag that with members to see if we can carve out 10 to 15 minutes towards the end.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we are delighted to have with us the Honourable Bob Rae, ambassador and permanent representative of Canada to the United Nations in New York. We also have Heidi Hulan, assistant deputy minister and political director of international security and political affairs; Sandra McCardell, assistant deputy minister for Europe, the Arctic, the Middle East and the Maghreb; and Julie Sunday, acting assistant deputy minister, consular, security and emergency management.

From the Department of National Defence, we welcome Major-General Paul Prévost, director of staff, strategic joint staff.

Lastly, we welcome Jean‑Marc Gionet, acting director general, immigration program guidance at the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.

We will begin with opening statements from Ambassador Rae for five minutes, after which we will move on to Major-General Prévost.

Colleagues are familiar with this. When you're down to the last 30 seconds in your speaking time, I will signal you with this yellow card. It's a very analog method of keeping time, but it has proven effective, so I ask for your indulgence in this respect.

Ambassador Rae, it is my pleasure to give you the floor for five minutes of opening remarks. Please go ahead, sir.

[Bob Rae, Ambassador and Permanent Representative of Canada to the United Nations in New York, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

We're meeting at a very solemn and difficult time. I want to stress to all of you that I'm available for your questions. The only problem I may have towards the end of the period is that our slot speaking at the General Assembly is then. If it comes up, I will have to go. However, I'm ably assisted by my colleagues from the department, as well as Major-General Prévost and Mr. Gionet. I'm very much looking forward to this opportunity to speak.

We are at an incredibly serious time. The invasion of Ukraine without justification, unprovoked, is the most serious act of aggression we have seen in Europe since 1945.

As you all know very well, the situation is quite serious.

First of all, the humanitarian situation continues to worsen. Over 368,000 people have left the country as refugees, and a larger number are internally displaced within Ukraine. We are seeing around the clock what a tragic situation this is.

In my remarks, I will comment briefly on the issue of sanctions and the question of the supports we're providing to the people and the Government of Ukraine. I will look as well at our consular response. Obviously, I will keep to the time frame, so you'll have to appreciate that my comments will be somewhat abbreviated.

The first thing on sanctions that I want to stress is that many thought that western countries would not be able to come together with respect to the actions required to deal with the invasion. That has proven to be completely false. We are now seeing an unprecedented degree of co-operation and a more intense solidarity than has been present in many, many other crises. The sanctions that have been posed on Russia—on its financial institutions, on targeted individuals, on many of those seen as being responsible for what has taken place, including President Putin, his cabinet and his foreign minister—are without precedent. They are already having a most dramatic impact on the Russian economy and, unfortunately, on the Russian people, because there is no choice.

It's important to stress as well that the assistance we're providing to Ukraine is not only humanitarian. The financial assistance we've been able to provide to the government on the defence side, which General Prévost will be talking about, is a very clear indication of our support.

Let me stress that Canada's support, friendship and partnership with Ukraine date back decades. There's the support we provided during the years of oppression under the U.S.S.R.; the support we provided under Prime Minister Mulroney following the declaration of independence of Ukraine; and the support we have provided over many years in terms of trade, commerce, consular and, in particular in the last seven years, military. Canada is responsible for the training of over 30,000 members of the Ukraine armed services.

Finally, on the consular response, which Julie Sunday can speak to more directly, I just want to stress the extent to which we have truly tried to mobilize as quickly as possible in response to the seriousness of the situation.

We agree that there is still much work to be done.

I am now ready to answer your questions.

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure and an honour to participate in this discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Rae, thank you very much for your introductory remarks.

I will now give the floor to Major-General Prévost for five minutes.

[Major-General Paul Prévost, Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

Thank you for inviting us this morning. It is a pleasure and an honour to participate in today's meeting for me as well.

In recent days, we've seen a devastating invasion. It's been devastating for the Ukrainian people and their armed forces. The images unfolding in front of us are difficult for the world to watch. They're difficult for Canadians and difficult for the men and women of the Canadian Forces. Since 2015, under Operation Unifier, our members have worked side by side with Ukrainians and have trained thousands of our Ukrainian counterparts to help them defend themselves against an eventuality like this one.

Over the recent months and weeks, we closely watched Putin prepare this terrible invasion, and for this reason we were ready. All of our troops have now been relocated from Ukraine to Poland. We will continue to look at avenues to support Ukrainian security forces in a training role when conditions allow. We have sent lethal and non-lethal aid, and we'll continue to do so in the coming days and weeks.

So far, we have sent nearly $8 million in defensive equipment and support items. They have been delivered in full. We have also authorized the provision of an additional $25 million in non-lethal aid, as requested by our Ukrainian counterparts.

We announced yesterday that we're sending two military transport aircraft to Europe to help NATO allies move personnel and equipment around Europe and military aid near the Ukrainian border.

We now have to turn our attention to deterrents in Europe and in North America. Under Operation Reassurance, our operation in Europe, we will bolster our NATO eastern flank by sending additional troops to Latvia, an additional frigate and a military patrol aircraft, which recently arrived in Europe. We've also placed additional troops from all of our branches—navy, army and air force—on high readiness to be able to deploy to Europe should NATO require additional capabilities.

We are still in the first five days of this crisis, and the situation is evolving quickly. I hope our contribution today will help you and our fellow Canadians understand a bit more about what we're doing in these difficult times.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Major-General Prévost.

Colleagues, we will go to the first round of our customary questions of officials and witnesses. These are allocations of six minutes each.

This morning, leading us off will be Mr. Chong. Please go ahead for six minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ambassador Rae, for appearing in front of us today.

My first question concerns natural gas. Russia provides 40% of Europe's natural gas, and since early December, the Biden administration has been talking with allies and partners around the world—with countries like Norway and Qatar, for example—about providing natural gas to European democracies in the event that Russia cuts off the gas.

Canada is the world's fifth-largest natural gas producer. Have you had discussions about Canada providing natural gas to Europe with your counterparts at the UN, in the event that Russia cuts off the gas to Europe?

[Bob Rae]

I haven't personally, Mr. Chong. Those discussions would normally be happening with Ottawa, and not through us here in New York.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you for the answer.

I have another question that's sort of related. The U.S. administration has, for some time now, been coordinating with Scandinavian countries—I use that term very broadly—like Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland on Arctic security. As you know, we share in common with Ukraine a border with Russia, and the U.S. administration has been coordinating with these countries on Arctic security. For example, they have been staging U.S. aircraft from bases in those countries. They have also been coordinating training missions with those countries. For example, U.S. B-1 bombers have been training with Swedish and Norwegian military fighter aircraft.

I'm wondering whether or not you've participated in discussions with representatives of these nations about Canada joining these discussions, seeing how important Canadian Arctic security and sovereignty are.

[Bob Rae]

Again, I haven't, Mr. Chong. That doesn't mean they haven't been taking place; it just means that New York is not the particular place where that's going on.

I don't know whether one of my colleagues could answer that question. Sandra, I don't know whether you or Heidi could speak to that, or maybe General Prévost.

[Sandra McCardell, Assistant Deputy Minister, Europe, Arctic, Middle East and Maghreb, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Let me begin, and then I'll pass it over to General Prévost.

We have been working very closely with the United States on Arctic issues more broadly. It's one of the key elements of the road map that we have with the United States. We do that on a range of issues, but I know you're most interested in security, so I'm going to turn it over to General Prévost, who can speak in particular to some of the work going on in NORAD and other items.

General Prévost, it's over to you.

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Thank you, Sandra.

Mr. Chair, our permanent presence in Europe is really around the Baltics in terms of our land force. We have 540 members as part of the EFP battle group. We work with Scandinavian countries in the NATO context when we exercise. There are yearly exercises to which we send components, and we recently participated with them as well.

As Sandra mentioned, most of the work we do looking at Arctic security is really with NORAD. We share the Arctic with Russia. We watch every day what they're doing in the Arctic, and we are also prepared on our side to defend on the northern side of Canada.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

In the defence of Canadian Arctic sovereignty and security, I hope we are not taking the position that the United States represents our interests with respect to Scandinavian countries. I think it's important that we stand up for our own sovereignty and security in the Arctic. I think it would be well worth considering having us deal directly, in concert with the Americans, with Scandinavian countries on Arctic security and sovereignty.

I have a final question for Ambassador Rae concerning the policy of the Canadian government with respect to lethal weapons.

The government indicated, until February 14, that it did not support providing lethal weapons, and the Prime Minister indicated that the reason was that the solution was diplomatic and not military. Then, on February 14, the Prime Minister announced a change in course and said the government would provide $7.8 million of lethal weaponry to Ukraine. In the last several days, the government has announced that it is providing non-lethal military equipment to Ukraine.

Was the February 14 announcement a one-off change in policy, or is the government now open to sending additional lethal weaponry to Ukraine?

[Bob Rae]

Mr. Chair, I discussed this question directly with the Minister of National Defence over the weekend. I have frequent conversations with her, as I do with Minister Joly and other ministers.

The position of the government is that it's reviewing this question every day. As General Prévost said, we have been directly assisting our friends in NATO—through the supply of the two large transport planes over the last 48 hours—to provide as much assistance to Ukraine as possible through NATO, and the minister is in contact with the Ukrainian minister of national defence on a daily basis.

So I think you can say that this situation is being watched very carefully. Other countries—Germany and the Netherlands, for example—have made some announcements with respect to changes to their policy and their determination to deliver weaponry to Ukraine. That, frankly, has followed on from much of what we've done.

I think it's fair to say that over a long period of time, as General Prévost has stated, our main focus has been on training, which has been remarkably effective in building up the capacity of the Ukrainian military.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Chong, we'll have to leave it there. Thanks very much.

Thank you, Ambassador Rae.

I'll now give the floor to Ms. Bendayan for six minutes.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

On behalf of all committee members and the government, I would like to once again thank the major-general.

I would also like to welcome you and thank you, Ambassador Rae. We have all been following your interventions at the General Assembly, and I would like to thank you for representing Canada so well at the United Nations.

Indeed, Canada has taken a leadership role in supporting Ukraine, as you mentioned earlier, and over the last number of weeks that leadership has intensified. Not only have we been among the first countries to provide humanitarian aid and assistance—in addition to our Operation Unifier and Operation Reassurance, which had already been on the ground for a number of years—but we have also provided both lethal weaponry and non-lethal weaponry to Ukraine at their request, and we are leading the way in asking that Russia be removed entirely from SWIFT.

That being said, I wonder what specific sanctions Canada and the international community could impose that we have not imposed as of yet.

[Bob Rae]

I'm not going to speculate on that, except to say that whatever we do, we do in concert with others.

Obviously there are some institutions that have yet to be named, and there are some individuals who have yet to be named, but I'm not going to speculate publicly about what or who they might be. I think there's a very clear determination—unparalleled, really, in modern history—on the part of the G7 countries and other countries to take steps to make the sanctions effective.

Just in the last 24 hours, Switzerland has announced that it's imposing sanctions of a financial nature on Russia, which you can appreciate is an entirely unprecedented action by the Swiss government.

I think that's a reflection of the amount of common effort that has been involved in getting us to where we are now.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you.

I note that Ukraine's president recently asked us to try to remove Russia from the UN Security Council. We saw, obviously, the impact of Russia's veto a few days ago. While I understand that there are enormous challenges with such an endeavour, I wonder if you could speak a bit to the possibilities that exist, either at the UN or in other international organizations, to isolate Russia diplomatically.

[Bob Rae]

I think the isolation of Russia is happening. We'll see in the next two days votes in the General Assembly, in which Russia does not have a veto. We'll see discussions taking place at the Human Rights Council, where Minister Joly is today in Geneva, which I think will similarly reflect a very substantial isolation. In our view, a full human rights inquiry should be carried out on what has happened.

The notion of expelling Russia from the Security Council, from the UN is.... I think the word is “challenging”, simply because of the charter. Russia has a veto in the normal course of events, and expulsion of a member requires the support of the Security Council, which means that Russia could again veto it. The views of the General Assembly would have to be expressed by two-thirds of the members. Again, we'll see as we start to lobby and discuss with the 193 members of the UN how they're feeling about these issues. That itself may be difficult.

Let me be very clear: Canada's position is that we're not in favour of the veto at all as an instrument, and we have been working hard in expressing that view, together with a number of other like-minded countries.

The UN is a very imperfect instrument at the best of times, partly because of the structures that were created in 1945. Because of the way in which the Security Council's efforts have been so systematically stymied by the abuse of the veto, that is obviously something we have to work at all the time. Given the five countries that allegedly were responsible for victory in 1945.... I say “allegedly”, because a number of us were involved in that, which is why Canada was not supportive of the veto at that time and is not supportive of it now. It was essentially imposed on us by the big five, and we're still living with that structure.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

At this very moment, talks are under way at the border between Ukraine and Belarus. We also know that, this weekend, a referendum was held in Belarus to authorize the Belarusian government to host Russian nuclear weapons.

Ambassador, could you comment on this situation and tell us about its potential repercussions on the conflict?

[Bob Rae]

Given that Belarus is a country under illegal occupation by the Russians, it is naturally important for the world to ensure that new countries do not have access to nuclear weapons. This remains a concern for Canada.

Concerning the discussions between the Russian Federation and Ukraine, no ceasefire was agreed upon, which means that the war is continuing. Even though discussions are ongoing, children are still being killed by Russian soldiers. That makes the discussion even more important, but we don't exactly know what the end result will be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Ambassador and Ms. Bendayan.

Mr. Bergeron, you have six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for joining us today. It's important that we have the opportunity to discuss this matter with you, in part to signal our unwavering support for the people of Ukraine. You are all very busy these days; we are therefore even more grateful to you for taking the time to join us this morning to talk about the ongoing situation.

I particularly want to welcome His Excellency, the Ambassador of Canada to the United Nations. Given the fact that a special session of the UN General Assembly is being held this morning, we are even more appreciative of his appearance before the committee.

Ambassador, you mentioned a few moments ago that a transport plane was a major component of the contribution that we are sending. As far as I know, it is a maritime surveillance aircraft.

Could this aircraft also be used for transport purposes to support the Ukrainians, or is it just a maritime surveillance aircraft?

[Bob Rae]

I'll give the floor to Major-General Prévost, since he has a better idea of what is happening.

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Thank you, Ambassador.

As the Prime Minister announced a few weeks ago, a maritime patrol aircraft was sent to strengthen security in Europe. It was part of the announcement about the additional frigate and troops that we are sending to Latvia.

Yesterday, it was announced that two additional transport aircraft were being sent. These CC‑130H Hercules planes will allow NATO to transport NATO staff and equipment throughout Europe, in order to better reposition our forces. Furthermore, these planes will be available to all of our allies if they need to send military assistance to the Ukrainian border. We will use these aircraft to transport this military assistance.

I hope that that answers your question.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

It does indeed. Thank you very much for those additional details, Major-General Prévost.

Unless I am mistaken, I got the impression that you carefully avoided Ms. Bendayan's important question about possible additional sanctions that could be imposed by western allies and Canada.

Could you please shed light on the additional measures that could be taken to apply more pressure to Russia, of course, but also to Belarus? As the ambassador has stated, children, women, the elderly and civilians continue to be killed during these ongoing negotiations.

That leads me to a related question. What more would it take in the Russian intervention for us to impose stricter sanctions?