Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 7th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 93 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Therefore, members are attending in person in the room, as well as remotely by using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of members and witnesses.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available. Although this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to the interpreters. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to a microphone.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do our best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, November 8, 2023, the committee will resume its study of Canada's diplomatic capacity.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. Appearing before us is the Honourable Mélanie Joly, Minister of Foreign Affairs. She is accompanied by Mr. David Morrison, deputy minister of foreign affairs, and Mr. Antoine Chevrier, assistant deputy minister and chief transformation officer. We are grateful that you are all here.

Minister, I know you are very excited about this particular topic. We are happy to have you here. You will have five minutes for opening remarks, after which we will turn to the members for questions.

Minister, the floor is yours.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is good to see all of you.

I'm pleased to see you all here.

Canada finds itself in a growing international security crisis. It is undeniable.

Just a few days ago I was in Kyiv, delivering a clear message from our government to Ukrainians that we are not going anywhere and we will be there for as long as it takes. Canada will continue to support Ukraine's fight for freedom through to the end of the war but also beyond. This is why Canada and Ukraine have launched an international coalition to bring Ukrainian children back home. We want to make sure that kids are never used as pawns in wartime.

Even after the war, Ukraine will be next door to a very dangerous neighbour, Russia. We know that in that context, Canada must be able to help Ukraine defend itself and show deterrence in light of danger. That is why I was there, and we have been working on advancing Canada's long-term bilateral security commitments to Ukraine to deter future Russian aggression.

Unfortunately, that's not the only conflict in the world that Canadians are concerned about. We're all deeply troubled by the devastating scenes coming out of the Middle East, whether it be the Hamas terrorist attack against Israel on October 7, which we continue to roundly condemn, or the death toll from the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, which we are all extremely concerned about.

Our government continues to support urgent efforts to secure an agreement to free hostages. It will allow for more humanitarian aid to flow into Gaza and it will force Hamas to lay down its arms. We hope that this agreement will eventually lead to a sustainable ceasefire as well as a two-state solution.

Whether in Khan Yunis, in Kherson or even in Khartoum, the rules-based system that has kept Canadians safe for generations is cracking. We are all facing increasingly complex modern challenges—disinformation and the rise of AI and political polarization, including the rise of extremist and populist movements even here in Canada.

We cannot let bad actors exploit this uncertainty with impunity. In rising to meet these challenges, I have been clear that our government's foreign policy will be guided by two key principles.

The first one is that we absolutely need to defend Canada's sovereignty. Our national interests require it and our national security depends on it. We must stand firm and defend the rules-based system and the institutions that have kept us safe.

The second is pragmatic diplomacy. We need to engage in pragmatic diplomacy to work with countries of different perspectives to prevent an international conflict. I don't believe in the empty chair policy. We will never compromise our values and we will never compromise our national interests.

In what we do on the world stage to make sure that we succeed, we must be present globally with our eyes and ears on the ground. Our diplomats must be diverse, bilingual, healthy and well equipped.

Last fall, we released a detailed plan to transform Global Affairs Canada for the future of diplomacy. It is more important than ever that this plan be implemented, and thank you to Antoine and David for working actively on this.

This plan has four points.

First, there is a need to invest in our people, in “our world” as we say. That includes recruiting a diplomatic corps that is representative of Canada in all its diversity. Francophones must be able to speak their mother tongue and we need to speak more foreign languages and speak them better. We also need to provide greater support to our diplomats and their families abroad.

Second, we must increase our presence where it matters most. This means expanding our influence in key multilateral institutions, including, of course, the United Nations.

We must also grow our diplomatic footprint in key regions such as eastern Europe, Africa and the Indo-Pacific. This is something our government has already begun doing.

Third, we need to enhance our policy expertise to better anticipate and manage prolonged crises like climate change, as well as the issue of AI and the digital world.

Last but not least, we must have the tools and processes to be efficient and to be better protected from cyber-threats, which are currently top of mind for all of us.

I'm ready to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We now turn to the members for their questions.

The first member up is MP Chong. You have six minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing. We appreciate that.

I want to ask you first about the recent revelation that Iran employed someone who hired two members of the Hells Angels to be assassins in North America—to target members of the Persian diaspora here in North America.

As my first question, did the U.S. government inform the Canadian government of this matter before the indictment was unsealed in a U.S. court?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you for that.

Of course, because this is linked to law enforcement work and the work that is done through the Minister of Public Safety, I would refer you to the Minister of Public Safety on this issue.

That said, on the question of any link of foreign interference or foreign criminal action in Canada, you are aware that we're dealing with this issue through the foreign interference public inquiry.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Canada doesn't have diplomatic relations with Iran.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

No, we don't.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Is Italy still our protecting power?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Yes, it is.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Has the Canadian government asked the Italian government to make representations on our behalf to the Islamic Republic of Iran in respect of this case in which Canadians are being hired as assassins?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

There is no question that Iran knows we believe Iran is a state sponsor of terror, that we have the strongest measures against Iran—pretty much in the world—and that we'll continue to make sure that this regime is held accountable in different ways.

I must say that when it comes to any form of these cases, my role as foreign minister is twofold.

The first role is to make sure that if there are any diplomats undertaking any foreign interference, I will be sending them packing. Now, we don't have diplomatic relations with Iran, so there are no diplomats in Canada representing Iran in our bilateral relationship. That's the first.

The second is to make it transparent if we are made aware of any information beforehand, as we did in your case last summer, Michael, when it became clear that China had tried to put pressure on you and your family. We'll continue to do that, because obviously, you and I—and all of us—know that the question of foreign interference is extremely important, and we will never tolerate it.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

Since we're on the future of diplomacy and the machinery of government, I'd like to focus on a machinery issue, which is the recent security breaches at the department.

Last summer, the U.S. government announced that hackers from the People's Republic of China were behind a hack into U.S. State Department emails. Last week, your department announced that it had been subject to a cyber-attack that forced the government to shut down part of the department's computer systems. It's the second major attack since the last one in early 2022.

Can you tell us if these are state or non-state actors behind this attack?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

First and foremost, when it comes to our IT systems, we are investing to make sure that we're protecting them even more, as we know there have been many more cyber-incidents, not only within the Five Eyes but also within the G7. That's why, as you were saying, Michael, the future of diplomacy is important. I hope I can get your support. We need more support and more money to invest in this infrastructure.

Second, when it comes to the latest incident, we took proactive measures to address it. Of course, we made sure that people working within Global Affairs were alerted and well taken care of. At the same time, we were addressing our system and its infrastructure.

What I can say is that the investigation is ongoing, and I can't comment any further.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I'd like to talk about another machinery issue, which is the global security reporting program. The NSIRA report of December 20 last year concluded that there was conflict between CSIS, which is our domestic intelligence-gathering agency, and the global security reporting program, and that there needed to be a deconfliction of that tension between the two entities within the Government of Canada.

Do you agree with that conclusion? If so, what measures are you taking to rectify the situation?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

To be frank, I never heard of any tensions between them, and there was never any representation made to me by CSIS or its directorate about the fact that there was apparently a conflict between them. I read that for the first time in The Globe and Mail.

That said, I don't agree that there should be any issues. Fundamentally, this program, which is headed by Global Affairs and abides by the Vienna convention, is extremely important across the world.

When it comes to the allegations that potentially one of the Michaels was linked to it, I profoundly disagree. I will always defend our two Michaels, who were arbitrarily detained by China. This will always be the position of our government. Of course I hope that is the position of all members of this committee and in the House.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to MP Chatel. You have six minutes.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our committee, Madam Minister. On a more personal note, thank you for showing empathy for the many women, children and civilians killed in Israel and Gaza, and for your efforts to restore peace and dignity in the Middle East.

Our committee is studying Canada's diplomatic capacity. We invited you to appear because you are currently studying the future of diplomacy, an initiative that you introduced, to your credit.

Could you explain to this committee and to Canadians what the future of diplomacy looks like for you and for Global Affairs Canada?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you, Mrs. Chatel.

It's an extremely important exercise, because we live in a new world, a world with more crises, more wars, more new issues such as those related to climate change or artificial intelligence. We must therefore have modern diplomacy that's tailored to the challenges of the 21st century. In that respect, Mr. Morrison, Mr. Chevrier and I have done some monumental work together.

First, we need to invest more in our people. Basically, we offer their expertise and services around the world. I know they have a strong presence in Ottawa and around the world, and I want to thank them for that. Diplomacy work is really a mission, and I know they represent us very well everywhere.

We also need to enhance our presence in the world. It's essential that there be more Canadians at the United Nations and in multilateral organizations, because the rules are currently being tested by autocratic countries. However, new rules are being drafted on emerging issues like artificial intelligence. So, if we aren't present and if we don't invest in these organizations, we won't be able to defend our interests or promote them. That's why our presence is important.

In addition, we must acquire more expertise on climate change and artificial intelligence. Finally, and this is related to my response to Mr. Chong, we need more information technology resources.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

You're right, it's essential that we invest so that Global Affairs Canada has more people in international organizations, because the conversations and issues are increasingly global in nature.

Over the course of our study, a number of people have told us how important it is to acquire expertise from other departments, which means we need to break down silos.

I believe that's part of your action plan. Could you say a few words about it?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Yes. It's important to understand that the staff at our embassies aren't just diplomats, strictly speaking, meaning people who have diplomatic relations with foreign governments. A number of our diplomats work for the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and provide immigration services. Others work in international trade and offer services to entrepreneurs who want to increase their market share or sell more of their products or services. There are also a number of people who work for the Department of National Defence, for example, and who provide support to our allies just about everywhere. So it's very broad.

As Minister of Foreign Affairs, I'm responsible for the diplomatic network, of course, but I also work with my colleagues who have staff all over the world. That's why we have to make sure we work together.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you.

Do I have a little time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You have one minute left.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, you talked about staff earlier. I'd like you to take some time to talk about those who are in places where there are major conflicts. We talked about the need to protect our staff who go to places where there are conflicts and crises.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Mrs. Chatel, I want to tell you how impressed and touched I was by the work of our ambassadors. I'm thinking in particular of Larisa Galadza, who was Canada's ambassador to Ukraine at the time of the invasion, and Natalka Cmoc, the current ambassador. In fact, I was with her last week. They're working in very difficult situations, where there is a constant threat of missiles on Kyiv. Today, about 40 missiles have been launched by Russia on Ukraine, particularly on Kyiv.

I'm also thinking of Philip Lupul, Canada's ambassador in Khartoum, Sudan. He had to manage an extremely difficult situation, as the lives of diplomats and Canadians were in danger. He had to ensure that there was an evacuation from Kenya. David Da Silva, who is in Ramallah, and Lisa Stadelbauer, who is in Tel Aviv, also had to work on evacuations. Every day, their work poses a significant risk to their safety, because Hamas is bombing Israel, and there are bombings in Gaza. We must support and protect Canadians who are in danger.

Since I became Minister of Foreign Affairs, there have been three wars and three evacuations. I saw how Global Affairs Canada staff worked in extremely difficult situations, under enormous pressure, but in a very professional manner.