Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 28th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 97 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of members.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. Also, please bear in mind that this room is equipped with a powerful audio system. Feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to the interpreters and can obviously cause serious injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to a microphone.

With regard to a speaking list, thanks to the clerk, we will do our best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members.

Allow me to start off by welcoming Mr. Fast back to the committee. It's great to have you back, sir.

We also have Mr. Steinley today.

We're very grateful to hear from our witnesses. I had a chance to speak to all members. As I understood, there was unanimous agreement for us to go until 6:15 for the testimony from our distinguished witnesses. The last 15 minutes will be devoted to committee business.

Is that okay with everyone?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, November 8, 2023, the committee will resume its study of security at the borders between Azerbaijan and Armenia.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses. We're very grateful to have two witnesses today from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development. We have Mr. Robert Sinclair, who's the senior Arctic official and director general of Arctic, Eurasian and European affairs, and Mr. Andreas Weichert, who's the director of the eastern Europe and Eurasia branch.

As I understand, you have one opening statement. For your opening statement, you have five minutes, after which we will follow up with questions from members.

Mr. Sinclair, the floor is yours.

[Robert Sinclair, Senior Arctic Official and Director General, Arctic, Eurasian and European Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you for the opportunity to meet with the committee today. As you noted, I'm joined by Andreas Weichert.

I thought I'd begin with a quick recap of key events from the past several months.

To recall, on September 19, 2023, after a 10-month blockade, Azerbaijan launched a military operation against self-armed militias in the Nagorno-Karabakh region. On September 20, Nagorno-Karabakh's de facto authorities announced their acceptance of a ceasefire proposed by Russian peacekeepers, based on Azerbaijan's maximalist goals.

What followed was a mass exodus into Armenia of over 100,000 ethnic Armenians who feared to remain in Nagorno-Karabakh after the conflict of the preceding 30 years and the deprivation and hardship caused by the blockade. The latest updates we have received from the United Nations Refugee Agency indicate that they have registered upwards of 116,000 refugees, effectively the entire population of ethnic Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh, among them about 2,000 pregnant women. About 70% of these people are currently staying in Yerevan and its region.

The Armenian government has responded in remarkable fashion, with essentially all arrivals being housed with family or in government-run shelters, or finding their own new accommodation.

UN agencies launched an appeal for $97 million U.S., and Canada has since announced a combined $3.9 million in humanitarian assistance through the ICRC, UNHCR and other organizations. This includes an additional $1 million of funding allocated to the UNHCR for life-saving assistance, such as protection services, shelter and other non-food items.

On October 25, 2023, Minister Joly officially opened the Canadian embassy in Yerevan. In addition to being an important symbol of Canada’s long-term support and commitment to the region, our embassy will signal that Canada is better positioned to engage with the Armenian government and communities and to contribute meaningfully to international efforts to support democracy, peace and stability in the region. Canada is also the first non-EU country to join the European Monitoring Mission in Armenia. Furthermore, Canada's Ambassador for Women, Peace and Security will visit Armenia in March.

In terms of Armenian-Azerbaijan relations, on October 26 of last year, Prime Minister Pashinyan announced his hopes that a negotiated peace agreement and the establishment of relations with Azerbaijan could be reached within months. On December 7, Armenia and Azerbaijan issued a joint statement that reconfirmed their intention to establish and deepen bilateral dialogue, and announced confidence-building and goodwill measures, such as a prisoner exchange that eventually took place on December 13 of last year.

Talks between the two sides have been proceeding since then, though not without their challenges, such as a speech with damaging rhetoric in early January by President Aliyev and ongoing tension along the border, as exemplified by the February 13 killing of at least four Armenians.

Also, today and tomorrow, face-to-face talks between foreign ministers will take place in Berlin, mediated by Germany’s foreign minister, Ms. Baerbock. This follows talks between Armenian Prime Minister Pashinyan and Azerbaijani President Aliyev at the Munich Security Conference, sponsored by German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. Armenia’s foreign minister, Ararat Mirzoyan, will also visit Turkey on March 1 to participate in the Antalya Diplomacy Forum. I think that is also a good sign.

To conclude, Canada strongly supports these efforts to achieve a comprehensive negotiated peace treaty and continues to promote the principles of non-use of force, territorial integrity of both countries and self-determination. A peace treaty must also guarantee the right of the displaced population to return to Nagorno-Karabakh as well as respect for their property and human rights.

We will continue to monitor the situation closely, including broader regional developments.

With that, Mr. Chair, Andreas and I are happy to answer any questions you and the committee members may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sinclair.

We will start off with MP Aboultaif.

You have six minutes, Mr. Aboultaif.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, witnesses, to the committee.

Mr. Sinclair, you mentioned in your opening statement that Canada had a monitoring mission with the European Union. There are talks between the two parties in Berlin with foreign ministers, which is a good sign that things are getting, hopefully, to a resolution at some point.

Is Canada involved with the European Union in more of a capacity than monitoring?

[Robert Sinclair]

Yes. While it's too early to announce the particular individual, we have had individuals interviewed to participate in the mission. We have one person in the pipeline, so to speak, undergoing the process. That will definitely give us added insights and increase our credibility, I would say.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Can we describe the role of Canada as a credible role in this whole thing, yes or no? Okay.

Would you be able to tell us what the official position of Canada is? We know, based on what you are telling us, that Canada is very involved in this, which is good news, but the official position of Canada is not clear to the public. If you're able to brief us on that, it would be great.

[Robert Sinclair]

Our position is that we strongly support the peace negotiations that are ongoing, and we look to the two countries to come to a negotiated, long-standing peace accord that reflects the principles I laid out in my opening statement—a peaceful resolution, self-determination and territorial integrity.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

I know that we're working with the European Union, which is an ally of ours. Do we have to work with other parties on this conflict that we don't agree with? Are you able to name some?

[Robert Sinclair]

We continue to support the efforts of those involved in the peace negotiations. We continue to deliver consistent messaging, which I've just stated, of support for the two sides in coming to a long-standing peace agreement.

One of the issues, frankly, is that both sides in the negotiations have their preferred format or sponsors to mediate. There have been some failed attempts, for instance, in Granada. Azerbaijan decided not to participate based on the non-participation of Turkey.

We continue to support efforts such as those by Germany currently that bring the two sides together. If the two sides are together and talking, we support that.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Russia is a big player in this whole conflict, and it's a sanctioned regime by us. How is Canada going to navigate those relationships in order to help in the peace process and the negotiations in the meantime, and enhance further the assurance of a good resolution at the end of the day?

[Robert Sinclair]

In that regard I'd note that on February 23, Armenia announced it was suspending its participation in the Russian-led Collective Security Treaty Organization, CSTO.

Russia's standing in the region is very much diminished. I don't think I'm telling tales out of school when I say that Armenia was extremely disappointed that the Russian peacekeepers failed to do what Armenia expected them to do, during both the 10-month blockade and the actual conflict. It's another example, frankly, of Mr. Putin's miscalculations, and another own goal for him as a result of his unjustified invasion of Ukraine.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

There are now 116,000 people in Yerevan and the region. Based on your personal observation, do you believe these people will go back to where they left in the region, yes or no?

If you wish to answer this question, it would be good.

[Robert Sinclair]

Frankly, there is a lot of fear to overcome. There are decades of hostility and conflict that need to be overcome.

Certainly our position, as I noted, is that their right to return needs to be reinforced. It needs to be a real right they can exercise without fear and with measures put in place to ensure that property rights and human rights are respected. That will, frankly, be a heavy lift, I think.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Do you know if this item is on the table now?

[Robert Sinclair]

I do not have insight into what is on the table between the two parties, but I would imagine it may be being discussed.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We next go to Dr. Fry. As I understand, Dr. Fry was actually in the region.

Dr. Fry, you have six minutes.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you very much for the briefing.

I was just in Yerevan in November, and I saw the reality on the ground of the 100,000 refugees in a region with 2.8 million people, which was difficult for them to do. They were looking for funding and help in housing refugees, and for food and medical supplies, especially for lots of the women refugees.

I was also in Vienna a week ago, where, of course, Armenia and Azerbaijan were, being two members of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. They did what we do in question period. They yelled at each other a bit, but they weren't terribly angry. There was no hostility. The heads of state were there, and the people who came from the different political parties talked to each other.

What I understand, following up on what Mr. Aboultaif asked you, is that yes, the EU is playing a role—you are absolutely right. I heard, with no exception from both sides, that they did not want Russia involved at all. They were disappointed in Russia.

Of course, as you know, Armenia would not like Turkey there. What we have is that somebody has stepped up to the bar, and it's not Canada. It's Georgia. Georgia is seeking to play a role, because it understands what's going on since it's been occupied by Russia and it's been having all of the same problems within the Caucasus region. There is a sense that both sides wouldn't mind Georgia.

What is Georgia going to be able to do given that it's not really a major nation? It doesn't have a lot of money; it doesn't have a lot of anything. Would it just be able to make the talks happen because of the trust between both countries and Georgia? Is that a solution we could look to? Is that something to which we could say, “Let's encourage this”, even as Canada? I do know there is a sense from one side that the European Union is not impartial, so we have a lack of trust among all kinds of people.

Could Georgia play a role? Can they do heavy lifting? They have credibility at the OSCE PA. Do you think they could play a role in dealing with some of these issues, including the delineation of borders, because we know that's a big one?

[Robert Sinclair]

I'll give the short answer and turn it to Andreas quickly.

Yes, I believe they could play a role, and we would support any honest broker who can bring the two sides together.

I'll turn to Andreas, who has actually been in the region.

[Andreas Weichert, Director, Eastern Europe and Eurasia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Rob.

My first assignment with this department was in Tbilisi, where I spent six months working on some of these issues.

To your question of whether Georgia could play an honest broker role, I'd say absolutely. They're part of the south Caucasus solution. The three countries of the south Caucasus have to get along. The two combatants—let's call them that for the moment—trust Georgia, and I think from the Canadian perspective, we certainly will work with players that can bring the two sides together. I think that would be key.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

My question, though, is, while there's trust and while Georgia is trusted by a lot of the members of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, does Georgia have the heft? That's what I want to ask. Germany has heft and Russia has heft. Does Georgia have heft? You would know more about that than I would.

[Andreas Weichert]

I think they have the heft in the region to get the leaders to sit down and talk, so yes.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Okay, thank you.

What is it that Canada can do, if we can, to help ease the problems with the refugees? I know that many women are having problems with organizations, with facing violence and with dealing with some of their sexual and reproductive health needs, because some of them were maltreated during some of the skirmishes. Is there something we can do to help with that in the region? Should we be able to step up and do that even if we don't have the heft that Georgia has?