Evidence of meeting #12 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was kong.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Lai  Son of Jimmy Lai and Leader of the FreeJimmyLai Campaign , As an Individual
Silver  Director of Policy and Projects, Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights
N. Stivers  U.S. and Canada Director, The Committee for Freedom in Hong Kong Foundation
Kovrig  Executive Director, StrategicEffects (GNSE)
Gallagher  Lead International Counsel to Jimmy Lai, As an Individual

4:55 p.m.

Son of Jimmy Lai and Leader of the FreeJimmyLai Campaign , As an Individual

Sébastien Lai

My father has always had an incredible love for Canada. As Brandon said before and you so eloquently put it, I have a lot of family in Niagara-on-the-Lake, including my father's sister, his niece and nephew, their kids and their grandkids.

One of the things I realized in fighting for my father over the last five years is how incredibly courageous his stance was and also how he knew it was a necessity. Everybody knows that it's much more comfortable in Niagara-on-the-Lake than in a Hong Kong jail cell. There is no argument there.

The fact that a man would choose to be away from his family despite the incredible warmth that gives you, especially at this late stage in his life, and would choose a cold Hong Kong jail cell I think speaks to the courage of my father and also to the importance of the values that he stands for. I'd like to think that, hopefully, he'll be out soon and he will be able to go back and see his sister, nieces, nephews, their kids and their grandkids again.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

We stand for that as well. I believe the last time your father came to Niagara-on-the-Lake was about 2018.

Next week on November 11 and 12, the Government of Canada will be hosting the G7 ministers at Niagara. I believe it's in Niagara-on-the-Lake exactly.

If you could ask them for help in freeing your father, what would you say? What is your message to those ministers and governments?

4:55 p.m.

Son of Jimmy Lai and Leader of the FreeJimmyLai Campaign , As an Individual

Sébastien Lai

I think my father's story is the reminder that the best days are ahead.

Here's someone who's willing to sacrifice everything he has to stand up for the freedoms and democracy that we all love and share and that we would all like to see more of. In light of that, in light of these beliefs, I think it's incredibly important to tell Hong Kong and China that it is not in their best interests to have this person die. This is a person who has given everything that he has for these beliefs, and for democratic countries, he's almost a representation, a distillation of all these beliefs in a man who's sitting in prison in Hong Kong.

I would like them to join in unison to call for my father's release and work for that to become reality.

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Silver, during question period just the other day, on Tuesday, when the Minister of Foreign Affairs was answering a question dealing with international trade, she had this one sentence in her response. I jotted it down. She mentioned, “We will continue to stand up for human rights around the world, especially within multilateral organizations.”

Mr. Silver, do you believe that the freeing of Jimmy Lai is on Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs' G7 agenda in Niagara next week?

4:55 p.m.

Director of Policy and Projects, Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights

Brandon Silver

We're particularly pleased that this case is a unifying one.

As I cited in quoting the unanimous consent motion of December 2023, Parliament as a whole expressed that Jimmy Lai represents the very best of shared Canadian values. Based on this unanimous will of Parliament, I trust that the government will seize any opportunity in front of it to save the life of a human rights champion who is suffering immensely as we speak today, and we've been encouraged that the Prime Minister recently spoke out.

We hope and trust that the government will use, as you suggested, any opportunity multilaterally, whether at the G7 or the UN or even in the strategic dialogue with China.

There is a consular dialogue as a part of that. Jimmy Lai's case should be a standing agenda item in the consular dialogue—

The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen

Thank you very much.

Next, we go to MP Mona Fortier. You have five minutes.

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier—Gloucester, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their appearance today and for sharing their views and ideas.

I’ll start with you, Mr. Lai.

My heart goes out to you and your family. Just like everyone else, I truly hope your father will be released.

Earlier, Mr. Oliphant asked you whether your father had reached out to you. I’d like you to tell us whether he’s had any meetings with U.K. consular officials, and if so, what type of meetings have there been?

5 p.m.

Son of Jimmy Lai and Leader of the FreeJimmyLai Campaign , As an Individual

Sébastien Lai

Thank you very much, honourable member.

My father has not had access to consular services because he’s of Chinese ethnicity. Even though he’s never had a Chinese passport and only has a U.K. passport, the governments of China and Hong Kong say that he’s purely Chinese. They don’t even recognize his U.K. passport. These governments claim that he’s purely a Chinese citizen and as such, he does not have any access to consular services.

Obviously, not only is this unfair, but it’s also not true. I think this is of real concern to many people in Canada who have Chinese and Hong Kong ancestry.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier—Gloucester, ON

Since his nationality has not been recognized, he’s not had access to U.K. consular services. Is that correct?

5 p.m.

Son of Jimmy Lai and Leader of the FreeJimmyLai Campaign , As an Individual

Sébastien Lai

That’s correct.

Furthermore, because he led a pro-democracy campaign, he has not been allowed to go to China for 30 years.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier—Gloucester, ON

Thank you for bringing that up.

I’m currently handling consular affairs, a responsibility that Mr. Oliphant has taken on in the past. I was saddened to find out that some countries, including China, don’t recognize dual citizenship. I think that fact is worth mentioning.

I’ll now address my remarks to you, Mr. Silver.

I heard what you said about strategy and what is going on around the world. Could you tell us about some of the most effective human rights strategies you’ve come across that various governments have used in this kind of situation?

Are there things you could share with us today?

5 p.m.

Director of Policy and Projects, Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights

Brandon Silver

Thank you very much, Madam Parliamentary Secretary.

Going back to the previous question, I’d like to add that it goes much deeper than a failure to recognize dual citizenship. Mr. Lai is not a dual citizen. He only has U.K. citizenship, but even so, the Chinese government doesn’t recognize his consular rights.

As for other cases where Canada has played a key role, I can tell you about the recent case involving Vladimir Kara‑Murza who gave evidence before this committee. In that case as well, Parliament unanimously passed a motion to grant him honorary Canadian citizenship. Canada called on all its diplomats and embassies around the world to raise Mr. Kara‑Murza’s case at every meeting. Every time they interacted with Russians and every time they attended a diplomatic event, they were expected to raise this issue as a landmark case. Just as Mr. Kara‑Murza’s case was a landmark in Russia, Mr. Lai’s case is a landmark for freedom of the press and the struggle for democracy in Hong Kong.

We can learn something from Mr. Kara‑Murza’s case, which was resolved through the relentless efforts of parliamentarians and the Canadian government as well as diplomatic efforts at various levels. The minister worked with her allied counterparts and even requested to attend the trial by proxy. She demonstrated exceptional creativity in her engagements. Mr. Kara‑Murza’s case culminated in his release thanks to the Canadian government’s intervention. We need to do the same thing for Mr. Lai if we want to get him back here.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen

Thank you.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier—Gloucester, ON

Thank you very much to all of you.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen

Thank you very much.

MP Brunelle-Duceppe, you have two and a half minutes.

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Silver, we invited Mr. Cotler to join us today but unfortunately he could not be here. I don’t want to put any pressure on you, but since you speak to him daily, what do you think he would have shared in his testimony had he made it here today?

5 p.m.

Director of Policy and Projects, Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights

Brandon Silver

Thank you for that very thoughtful question. I know that Professor Cotler, who's in a hospital bed watching this, will appreciate that question. I apologize for answering in English, but for the sake of clarity, I will respond in English.

He's on dialysis now because of complications from diabetes. I think he would first respond by talking about the acute risks that Mr. Lai is facing as a senior citizen and a diabetic sitting in a Hong Kong prison. I stress the urgency and the humanitarian nature of this case.

I believe that, as a former parliamentarian, he would also thank you for your leadership in unanimously and persistently advancing this case and would urge that it be continued and that the leadership that the government is exercising be deepened, be raised at the G7 and be raised multilaterally. As a former minister of justice who spent half a century before that advocating for political prisoners around the world, he would say that parliamentarians and the rule of law have roles to play, that the Minister of Justice of Canada can raise the case with Hong Kong legal authorities, and that any creative mechanism that might exist should be exercised.

I think he would probably share the story of his work representing Anatoly Sharansky, who was eventually released from the most powerful country in the world at the time, the Soviet Union. Similarly to what Caoilfhionn and Michael shared earlier, that only happened because of the tipping point that was reached. He saw the premier of the Soviet Union at a conference years later and asked him why Sharansky was released from prison. What worked? What part of our advocacy made a difference? The premier said, “Believe it or not, when I took office, I did not know who this political prisoner was, even though he was celebrated around the world. Every time I went to a bilateral meeting, every time I went to a parliament, everybody was raising this case, so when I went back to the Soviet Union, I called up his file. I looked it over. I said, 'It's just not worth it. It's coming up everywhere. There's too much pressure.'” That scale was balancing, and the premier decided to release him.

There were other important mechanisms in other cases. Again, with regard to the Soviet Union, there was the Jackson-Vanik amendment, another struggle that Professor Cotler helped lead. We used our leverage—trade relations and diplomatic relations—to ensure that the human rights that were being violated were redressed and that the necessary actions were taken.

I know that would not nearly do justice to anything Professor Cotler would have shared, but I know that, at least in principle, these are some things he would have wanted to raise.

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

You’ve done a great job.

The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen

Thank you very much.

We will next go to MP Konanz for five minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Helena Konanz Conservative Similkameen—South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Thank you all for being here. You all are very powerful witnesses.

My first question is for Mr. Silver.

Which officials and entities tied to Hong Kong's national security law prosecutions meet the legal threshold for Canadian Magnitsky sanctions today? How would we structure listings to be effective and defensible?

5:05 p.m.

Director of Policy and Projects, Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights

Brandon Silver

Speaking more generally about Canada's sanctions law, whether it's the Special Economic Measures Act or the justice for Sergei Magnitsky act, it's anchored in international law and in human rights protections. As Caoilfhionn referenced earlier, the UN working group on arbitrary detention and a number of UN special rapporteurs have cited the egregious violations of human rights law and China's international legal obligations, such that, certainly in the cases presented here, from a legal standpoint the Canadian thresholds under our targeted sanctions laws would have been fulfilled based on the violations inherent in the national security law enforcement.

I know the Committee for Freedom in Hong Kong Foundation has made a number of sanction submissions relating to Hong Kong authorities. Jonathan might have more to share substantively beyond the legal dimensions.

5:05 p.m.

U.S. and Canada Director, The Committee for Freedom in Hong Kong Foundation

Jonathan N. Stivers

I would just say it would be good to start with the 48 Chinese and Hong Kong officials who have been sanctioned by the United States under different administrations—both the Trump and the Biden administrations. We believe those definitely meet the threshold. There are others, but we think those definitely meet the Magnitsky threshold.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Helena Konanz Conservative Similkameen—South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

My next question would be for any of you who would know the answer to this.

Have any countries imposed sanctions specifically related to Jimmy Lai's detention or prosecution? I think I know the answer to that, but have there been any specific sanctions? If not, why do you think that is?

5:10 p.m.

U.S. and Canada Director, The Committee for Freedom in Hong Kong Foundation

Jonathan N. Stivers

I don't know that anyone has been sanctioned specifically for Jimmy Lai. The sanctions designations have been broader than just Jimmy Lai. It's been repression, lack of autonomy, political prisoners generally and transnational repression. Those are the reasons that are given, as opposed to a particular political prisoner.

Certainly the jailing of 2,000 political prisoners since 2019, many of whom are still in prison, has been the reason for the sanctioning of almost all the Hong Kong and Chinese officials.

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, StrategicEffects (GNSE)

Michael Kovrig

If I may make a comment about a sanctions-related issue that the Honourable Mona Fortier raised earlier, the issue of dual citizenship or the lack thereof with China is a critical issue because the Government of China violates its own laws and principles in dealing with these cases.

The Nationality Law of China explicitly states that if a Chinese citizen acquires a foreign citizenship, they automatically lose their Chinese citizenship. There are different provisions for Hong Kong citizens, but all the same, to assert that a U.K. citizen or, for example, any of the four Canadians that the PRC executed earlier this year are not Canadian citizens is absurd by China's own laws.

One way that we can make use of China's current charm offensive and desire to portray itself as a responsible upholder of multilateralism and global governance is to work with allied and like-minded countries to press on this critical consular issue of getting China to respect the basic fundamental norms and laws of international relations, consular relations and diplomacy, which say a U.K. citizen or a Canadian citizen—Huseyin Celil is another example—is entitled to at least consular visits, consular attention and protection because that is crucial to the health and safety of detainees. That can, in turn, be used as a further means of leverage and influence in a case such as Jimmy Lai's.

Ultimately, progress on economic issues that China and Hong Kong want needs to be conditioned simply on compliance with international agreements that China has already accepted and agreed to. We are simply asking them to comply with their own laws and with international treaties that they have signed.