Evidence of meeting #26 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was venezuelan.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington—Tyendinaga, ON
Sure. I'll pass along the question.
I'll move on next to Ms. Halvorsen.
Could you possibly describe the current scale of displacement from Venezuela and how it's affecting other countries in South and Central America?
Acting Representative in Venezuela, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees
Unfortunately, we do not have absolute numbers. What I can say is that the trend goes more towards people returning to the country than towards people leaving. That means some people are still going abroad. We hear mainly that Colombia and Brazil are the countries they try to reach. We also know some people are trying to reach Spain, especially now that the United States has closed the temporary protection scheme it had.
I'm afraid we do not have absolute numbers to share with you.
Conservative
Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington—Tyendinaga, ON
For those who are watching, the UNHCR is the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. How would you describe the relationship between the UNHCR and the Maduro regime?
Acting Representative in Venezuela, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees
Here in Venezuela, as in any country, we work with the state and whatever government is in place. In that sense, especially at the local level, the service centres I was talking about that provide access to documentation and psychosocial support are always organized together with local authorities, so we build from that.
Again, we very much want to contribute to a state-led response to the people returning to the country. That's how we can be the most effective.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen
Thank you very much.
Next we'll go to MP Steven Guilbeault.
You have five minutes.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Thank you to all the witnesses here today.
I had a question for Dr. Johnston about what would be needed in terms of investment in Venezuela to ramp up production to what it was, certainly in light of comments by companies like Exxon saying the oil sector in Venezuela is “uninvestable”.
Ms. Dickinson, I have a couple of questions for you. You talked about the three-point plan from the Americans, with the third point being a transition to democracy. Can you expand on what would be needed to get there? Is there anything a country like Canada could do to help foster getting to that transition?
Deputy Director, Latin America, International Crisis Group
This is a great question that we're also asking ourselves. What are the conditions we need?
The first one is a fundamental dialogue between the government, the regime and other sectors of the population. That means political sectors, the opposition and civil society. That is fundamental, because one of the keys to making a transition successful, as we've learned in other contexts, is creating conditions that incentivize individuals who are clinging to their posts, particularly if they have committed, for example, human rights abuses. We need to incentivize them to leave their posts, but we also need to provide justice and truth in a way that is fair to whatever victims they have left in their path. It is fundamental to have those sorts of conversations in order to set up the conditions for a successful transition of state control, going from the hands of one regime into those of a democratically elected leader.
Even before getting to that, there are fundamental steps that this government could continue to take, which it has started taking, and could expand dramatically.
The first one that I would point to is civic space. We have seen a push-and-pull dynamic in the first weeks of this transition. Political prisoners are released, but then they're recaptured. Political prisoners are released, but then new individuals are apprehended. Checkpoints still remain in an ad hoc way to check people's cellphones to make sure they don't have the wrong information, the wrong communication or a news story that might signal they are against one side or another. Opening up that civic space is a really fundamental first step. Certainly, this is a role for the international community to play.
Additionally, the humanitarian side of this is one we rarely think about, but it is a fundamental factor. Stabilizing daily life in Venezuela for those who have stayed and for those who potentially return is the fundamental way through which a transition can happen.
You have to take care of steps one, two and three before we can think about a more dramatic change.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Thank you.
How do you think a country like Canada should respond to the recent developments in Venezuela, specifically in terms of reopening diplomatic relations with the regime in place?
Deputy Director, Latin America, International Crisis Group
This is a great question and one that I think a lot of European countries are also grappling with, particularly those that have either maintained embassies with a reduced presence or closed their embassies completely.
Our view on this topic is that it's too early to immediately give symbolic recognition to this government by reopening fully and bringing diplomatic relations fully online. There is still further to go in terms of the gestures of true goodwill that can be shown by Caracas, and not just from opening statements and the announcement of committees and laws, but also in their true implementation.
The steps that have been taken are promising. For example, waiting to see how the amnesty law unfolds in practice is fundamental to seeing whether this is a commitment on paper or a commitment that will play out in the practical consequences for individuals who have been wrongly persecuted for political offences.
Again, our view is that this is a wait-and-see moment and potentially a moment to open a conversation with the government in Caracas about what Canada would like to see in order to re-establish a relationship and civic opening.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Thank you very much.
I don't have any more questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen
Thank you very much.
We'll go next to MP Sandra Cobena.
You have five minutes.
Conservative
Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My questions will be directed to Mr. Di Martino.
Before I start, I want to say that we were supposed to have MarÍa Oropeza joining us today. I was deeply disappointed when I heard she wouldn't be able to. As I understand it, she acquired the headset she was supposed to, but it was the wrong version. The only difference between one version and the other is comfort for the user.
She was a political prisoner who was released recently. She still cannot leave the country. She had to travel to another city, as you can imagine, in Venezuela to obtain this, and it's expensive on the ground. We are doing a study about Venezuela, but we don't have a Venezuelan on the ground. She's the only Venezuelan who's documented the actions of the regime. In fact, she livestreamed the very moment she was taken by the regime. I wish we could have done better than that.
To start—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen
We did. I don't want to take from your time, but I'm happy to respond or have the clerk go into detail about the efforts we made for her to receive—
Conservative
Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
We can talk about it, but to have her silenced over a version is, as you can understand at this point—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen
Absolutely.
It wasn't just about the comfort level of the headset for the user. It was about the ability of the headset to work with both—
Conservative
Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Anyway, I don't want to get into a discussion now. As I understand it, the sound check went through. We can discuss details to avoid this in the future.
Mr. Di Martino, when some Canadians woke up to the news of the removal of Nicolás Maduro, they were conflicted about the method used for his removal. He was taken into U.S. custody with serious criminal charges, including drug trafficking and direct involvement with terrorist organizations.
Could you please give us your perspective on the removal? Also, perhaps you can touch on the specific criminal charges for which Nicolás Maduro is currently being held in the United States.
Fellow, Manhattan Institute, As an Individual
The truth is that anything that has happened to Maduro is too little for what he truly deserves. It's amazing that he was taken. It was done in a really great operation.
This was really just law enforcement. He was lawfully indicted, unlike MarÍa Oropeza, as you mentioned, who was kidnapped from her home at night. Maduro got a bit of his own medicine, except that it was all lawful and very positive on the ground. Most of the people who died defending him were Cuban agents.
I don't think we talk enough about the role the Cuban regime has had in supporting repression in Venezuela, in addition to repressing its own people.
Conservative
Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
We hear even members of Parliament saying that it is not for anyone but the Venezuelan people to change the government and that they should do it with the Venezuelans on the ground. Not even expats have a role to play in that transition. There are some complications, of course, with that, given the Maduro regime.
Could you please share your thoughts on that?
Fellow, Manhattan Institute, As an Individual
Number one, we're talking about an armed regime and an unarmed civilian population. The truth is that Venezuela was never going to change without external help.
By the way, most countries tend not to change without external help. The Soviet Union didn't fall on its own. It fell thanks to international pressure. They got lucky, too, in that they got Gorbachev, who wanted to reform, but it took 70 to 80 years for that to happen. That is the lifetime of many people. It's hundreds of thousands of deaths. It's millions of refugees. It is affecting the world.
You mentioned the charges. Maduro himself was a drug trafficker. The biological nephews of his wife, Cilia, were convicted in the United States for being drug traffickers—bringing cocaine to the United States. That cocaine also ends up in Canada. It kills Canadian citizens. That is a national security issue, but he's not even being indicted on the crimes he committed against Venezuelans in Venezuela, which have been the worst of the crimes.
Conservative
Sandra Cobena Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Experts have suggested that Venezuela served as a platform for Iranian influence in the western hemisphere and may have hosted networks linked to the IRGC and Hezbollah. What types of activities were these groups believed to have conducted inside Venezuela?
Fellow, Manhattan Institute, As an Individual
One thing is that modern terrorist groups finance themselves through drug trafficking. The Taliban financed itself through opium, and so did the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad. The Venezuelans did too, as do FARC and the ELN. That is something to keep in mind.
The IRGC is one of those groups. The Iranians not only function in Venezuela. We're seeing Islamic Shia schools open in Margarita and in other parts of Venezuela. I have nothing against people who are believers of Islam, but these are people immigrating to Venezuela from Iran. Who is trying to immigrate? Which kind of foreigner wants to immigrate to Venezuela in its current state? It's only somebody who is sponsored by a foreign regime.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen
Thank you very much.
I understand that there's an agreement to allow me to ask a few questions because we have a slot. I want to follow up on some of the questions that have already been asked.
In Venezuela, the idea of a transition was supposed to lead to democracy. What is the momentum toward that? I would like to hear from Ms. Dickinson and Mr. Di Martino.
Deputy Director, Latin America, International Crisis Group
In terms of the U.S. government's position, as we have heard it articulated publicly and in our private conversations, it's essentially saying that it is not ready to have that conversation yet. I would say the momentum is very far from the offing, unfortunately, at least from the U.S. perspective.
As we've heard throughout this hearing, on the ground, Venezuelans themselves are itching for an opening in the form that could possibly come. In fact, recent polling shows that María Corina Machado continues to be by far and overwhelmingly the most popular politician in the country.
Here, we have almost a replay of tensions that Venezuela has experienced now for years, in which you have tension between a regime—now supported by and in an alliance with the United States—that is very reluctant to relax its clench on power and have conversations about a democratic transition, and the growing calls for it from the people themselves.
Fellow, Manhattan Institute, As an Individual
I would say that governments are not sole entities. The U.S. government is not even a sole entity itself. There are people with different opinions. There are different goals that different people have in mind. The question at the end of the day is, who is going to win?
A lot of the things you see in the media, unfortunately, are planted. Why do you think that in December, a month before the U.S. intervention, the New York Times put Delcy Rodríguez on its cover and tried to whitewash her? Do you think that was coincidental? I don't think so. Do you think it's coincidental how many journalists and people are trying to twist different words that the President or the Secretary of State says? I don't think any of that is coincidental.
I think the regime has been trying to remain in power for a very long time. They have many different paid actors around the world, especially in developed countries. Their goal is to lengthen this transition process.
Economically, the only way the U.S., Canada, Europe or the world is going to reap the benefits of economic liberalization is through the rule of law.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ahmed Hussen
That's actually where I was going next.
Speaking of the rule of law, how do neighbouring countries feel about the manner in which the removal of Maduro happened? I know colleagues, of course, have a lot of reservations about the Maduro regime and his methods of repression of the Venezuelan people, and I share them, but at the same time, we have rules for a reason. We have international law. Authorization is needed from the UN and others.
How do neighbouring countries like Brazil, Colombia and others feel about the fact that there was an operation launched without any consultation or authorization by the United Nations or neighbouring countries?