Government Operations Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2006

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Is there a particular regional impact?

[David Moloney]

There is no particular regional impact, no, beyond the fact that more employees are centred in the national capital region than anywhere else.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We'll go to Mr. Martin, for eight minutes, questions and answers.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, let me say the NDP has been openly critical of both the amount of money that has been cut from various programs and the process. I will make no bones about the fact that we've been very critical of what we believe to be ideologically driven cutting, hacking, and slashing. We can only conclude that the newly elected government is trying to punish certain NGOs, certain centre-left organizations that don't agree with the political ideology of the new government.

[An hon. member]

Point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

He's making a statement.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

That's the frustration people are feeling where I come from, and that's what people are telling me.

I come from the labour movement, where we went through this whole era of scientific management—kaizen, continuous improvement. Management was always looking for ways to find efficiencies and eliminate waste. But the logic was to find efficiencies and eliminate waste so you could put what you found back into more product. Here it seems we've looked for the efficiencies and trimmed the fat to the point where many of the fundamental elements have been taken away all together, so that the organization has less to deal with.

I would ask you to comment on the logic in gutting organizations, as opposed to rewarding them for finding efficiencies.

In the province of Manitoba, the literacy group got cut. This is one of the favourite examples used by the minister and others. I think they had $365,000 a year, of which only about $10,000 a year was actually given out in literacy-related grants. But I'm here to tell you that I actually know those people, Marg Rose and others. I've been to visit them. They work very hard all year long promoting literacy in ways above and beyond the actual grant. That's one example where it's completely wrong to say that money was being wasted just because it wasn't being given out in direct grants and contributions to the community.

So I have two questions. First, do you have any specifics on that cut? Second, could you address the larger question about cutting, hacking, and slashing, and then taking whatever you hacked out and not reinvesting it back into the same program?

[Robert Fonberg]

Let me respond briefly. My colleague can pick up the question of the literacy program in Manitoba.

As a public servant, the rhetoric is a little hard for me to deal with. In the same budget in which the government announced its plan to reduce spending by a billion dollars, it also announced its intention to spend $224 billion this year. It also announced that the $1 billion would be used to fund its $5 billion of new spending. It identified priorities around that $5 billion, including communities, health, and defence. Basically, the government used the $1 billion to reinvest in what it has continued to argue are its new priorities.

From our perspective, it's not more complicated than that—$1 billion on a $224 billion budget. The $1 billion was reinvested to top up $4.4 billion worth of new spending to about $5.5 billion.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

This is to become an annual feature, though. This is the first go-around. We used to get this from the Liberals too. After the devastating program review in 1995, 1996, and 1997, they began the annual process of trimming about a billion dollars a year in fat, to the point where there was no fat left to be trimmed. Some cuts don't heal. When you get through the fat and into the bone and meat, you're causing grief and anguish above and beyond the fat trimming.

How can this go on? In light of this trend, how can we expect programs like the court challenges or the status of women to survive? We feel persecuted. Those of us who care about these social justice areas feel that we've been singled out and targeted for cutting. Nobody talked about cutting the $1.4 billion that they give to the oil and gas companies in grants. They could have found a billion dollars right there. Why pick these little nickel-and-dime cuts that devastate important programs for low-income people?

I know you can't answer those political questions, and maybe I'm just venting my frustration. I didn't answer it. I'm accusing the government of being motivated more by ideology than by reason, logic, or even efficiency. We feel genuinely punished by this. It's beyond reason and logic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Martin, could you continue asking direct questions to the public servants? I know how you feel, but if we could get—

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

As a Winnipeg MP, I suppose I would be interested to know if you have any specifics about the logic that drove the cuts to the Manitoba literacy program.

[Janice Charette]

Thank you for the question.

The existing agreements that have been established under the adult learning, literacy and essential skills program will be honoured. If there is an existing agreement with an organization, it will be honoured.

The decision announced by the government was that adult learning literacy programs in the future will be retargeted so that they're focused on national priorities and achieving concrete results for Canadians.

So existing agreements will be respected, and—

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

How can the priority have changed, though? Literacy is literacy is literacy. How is it that this adult literacy program doesn't meet the objectives of adult literacy programs?

[Janice Charette]

Mr. Martin, what I'm trying to say is that an existing agreement will be respected. We are now in the process of processing—

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

So you're not going to cut any money from Manitoba?

[Janice Charette]

—calls for proposals. The calls closed on or before September 15 under this program, and we'll be proceeding on the basis of instructions from the minister to tighten the evaluation criteria for the proposals, to make sure those proposals are generating concrete results and measurable outcomes for adult learning and literacy.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Do you have any specific information about the Manitoba office and its budget?

[Janice Charette]

I have to say—

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I know it's hard to deal to with a specific like that.

[Janice Charette]

—unfortunately, no.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

That's fine.

[Janice Charette]

We have 130 projects active right now.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I understand. It's not up there.

[Janice Charette]

I'd be happy to get back to you, Mr. Martin.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I appreciate that.

What about the ongoing annual nature of this? Have you been served notice that you're expected to find $1 billion a year somewhere within the government's spending?