Government Operations Committee on March 22nd, 2007

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Half of what?

[Maria Barrados]

I'm talking about public servants who will have retired.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

But I don't see that in the percentages of 3.5% and 3%.

[Maria Barrados]

Those are the percentages for each year. This is based on those figures. If approximately 3% of public servants retire every year, over a certain period of time, you get the total—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Are those figures rising increasingly quickly?

[Maria Barrados]

Yes, slightly.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Describe “slightly” to me.

I see an increase here. For example, the shift from 2.3% in 2003-2004 to 3.5% represents approximately a 50% increase.

[Maria Barrados]

Yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

That's quite a sharp increase.

Between 1992 and 2003, there was a 25% decline in the number of employees 30 years of age and under. In addition, the number of 40-year-old employees climbed by 50%. So we see that the public service is aging quite quickly.

The figures that the Library of Parliament has given us show that the average age of public service employees is approximately five years above the average for employees across Canada. So our public service is older than the population at large, isn't it?

[Maria Barrados]

Indeed, our public service is older than the Canadian labour force as a whole.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

It's aging more quickly as well.

[Maria Barrados]

Yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

These are the figures we just talked about, which show that the public service is aging more quickly, that the percentages of public servants who are retiring are rising and that the public service is older than the labour force in general.

Do you believe there could be specific pressures on managers in our public service? In what public service sectors will we be seeing problems as a result of demographic changes?

[Maria Barrados]

You're right in saying that the demographic picture of the public service and that of the population that constitutes the Canadian labour force are different. However, I'm not sure that we really have a problem. We're experiencing the consequences of the way in which we have managed the public service. Furthermore, cuts were made during the program review period, and there were a lot of departures. The figures show that. In addition, postsecondary education requirements are higher. We require that candidates have much more experience. People entering the public service are older. Their average age is 35.

In addition, our pension plan provides incentives for public servants to retire earlier than other workers. In my view, there have been changes in both the public service and the population. However, this is not a crisis. It is a situation that the public service must manage by taking planning measures, training people and implementing programs to hire people accordingly.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

The figures show that you have managed to improve the pass rate on second language examinations. I saw that the failure rate among Anglophones taking the oral French examination had declined appreciably. Is that as a result of changes that you have made to the exams, or rather because you have improved the way training is delivered?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you, Mr. Poilievre.

Madam Barrados, perhaps you can respond to that in the next round or when we have another opportunity. Thank you.

Now it's Ms. Nash, please.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to all of the witnesses this afternoon, and thank you for your presentation.

My first question is about the rate of retirement. You said the rate is higher than that of the private sector. I'm wondering how we compare with other public sectors, either provincial or in other countries, in Europe or the U.S. Are we slower than those jurisdictions as well, or just the private sector?

[Maria Barrados]

The rate of retirement we have is growing faster in the public sector than it is in the private sector, but the overall rate of departure—the number of people who leave—is actually lower in the federal public service than it is in any other area I was able to compare. I was looking for these numbers in anticipation of this kind of question.

When we look at an overall rate of departure of around 3.7%—this is retirements and departures for any other reason—a comparable number in the United States federal public service is around 5.5%, and the kinds of numbers you see in the private sector are 8% to 9%.

What we see in the federal public service is that people come in and stay for their careers. The increased rate we're seeing in these departures and retirements is relatively small compared with that in any other sector. It's just that it's bigger than what the federal public service is used to.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Right--so growing numbers of people are eligible and increasing numbers are taking their retirement, but it is slower than in other jurisdictions, both public and private.

[Maria Barrados]

The other phenomenon we see in the Canadian federal public service is that people are retiring earlier than in other sectors. It is close to 58, on average. Now, averages are very deceptive, because you've got things on both sides. Close to 58 is the age that people in the public service, on average, retire; in the private sector, it's closer to 60. Self-employed people work into their mid-sixties.

We see that phenomenon because of the nature of the pension plan, which provides an incentive for people to leave when they have 30 years of service or reach 55 or reach 60.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I have to say that in an era of increasingly precarious work, temporary work, and lower-paid jobs, it's a positive sign that we have public service jobs that people can make a career of. We become the beneficiaries of that expertise over a long period of time, and when people do retire, they're encouraged to do so because they have some financial security from their pension plan and an incentive to take that pension plan.

I think what I hear you say is that the system is actually working in a positive way.

[Maria Barrados]

I don't like to use the word “crisis” at all with the system we have; it's just that we have a change to what we're used to, and we're not used to the rate of departure we're now seeing. Although relative to everyone else it's pretty small, we're not used to it. Of course, because people go for their careers, it's doubled in the executive ranks, and the system needs to turn to managing that in terms of getting people ready, getting the replacements, getting the succession, getting the transfer of knowledge.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

But in general the public service is a good place to work and it has been working well, so it's not that it's a crisis; the question is how to manage this demographic change that all parts of society are facing.

It's good that there are incentives for people to leave, and that increasing numbers of people are leaving. We have these phenomenal numbers of almost a million people applying in the public sector. It must be a phenomenal undertaking to manage that and ensure that we're replacing the people who are leaving with well-qualified people who are going to be able to make this change as seamless as possible.

[Maria Barrados]

Ms. Nash, you've asked me one of my favourite topics. I don't intend to give my speech, but we are committed at the Public Service Commission to a fair, accessible system. Certainly the message I get from members of Parliament is that you want all Canadians to have access to those public service jobs, so in fact our challenge is to manage the numbers in a fair and respectful way.

We are working very hard at trying to do that as efficiently and effectively as possible. We are turning to a lot of automated kinds of solutions and trying to do that in a reasonable way. It's a challenge.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Like my colleague, I get requests from people, inquiries about jobs in the federal public service. Among my constituents are a large number of new Canadians, a large number of people of colour, and a large number of people who are facing the challenge of getting recognition of their credentials. We have a number of professionals who are underemployed. Certainly, as you said earlier, the federal public service is an employer of choice for many; it is certainly an employer of choice for them.

I know you said many people of colour were applying to the federal public service, but not quite as many were getting accepted. I'm wondering what the barriers are, and how we can help make sure this group is not under-represented when we look at outcomes in the federal public service.