Evidence of meeting #42 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was numbers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
The numbers aren't as high. We're hiring them at around 11% or 12%.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Okay. Would that be the same for aboriginal people, for example?
4:25 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
They come in at about the same rate.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Garth Turner Conservative Halton, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
With regard to the comments you made on the average retirement age, I found it interesting that you said that the age is around 58, as compared with 60 for the private sector, and mid-60s for self-employed. You're attributing that to the pension plan that's offered.
Can you just review for me in ten seconds why it's so attractive for people to retire at age 58?
4:25 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
You can take a full pension if you're a public servant and you've had 30 years of service and you reach the age of 55. So it's that 30 and 55 combination. If you have had up to two years and you hit 60, you can take a pension without any penalties. Now, those pension calculations are a function—
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
Two years of service. You can take a pension without any penalties, but it's a function of years of service and your last salaries.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garth Turner Conservative Halton, ON
Okay. Can you give me an example of somebody who is 58 years old and has worked for ten years? What kind of a pension would they have.
4:30 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
It would be strictly a function of their salary.
4:30 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
It's based on your best five years. I'll have to send you the actual rates. Does somebody know the rates?
I'm not busy calculating my pension, but it's a proportion.
4:30 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
It's not a problem. It's the way the system works.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garth Turner Conservative Halton, ON
I know, but we have a problem if people are retiring seven years earlier than they do when they are self-employed, or two or three years earlier than they do in the private sector. Obviously there's something out of sync here. Either the private sector is wrong or you're wrong.
4:30 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
I don't think it's a question of being right or wrong. The Statistics Canada study--the numbers that I'm using--actually did projections of what it would be like if you changed the pension incentive so you kept people longer and what would happen to your numbers. Of course what happens--as you're implying in your question--is that they wouldn't go out at the rate at which they are currently going out.
I'm not seeing that we have a big crisis. I'm seeing that we have something we have to manage. We don't have the rates departing that you have in any of the other sectors, but they are bigger than what we're used to.
I'm not here advocating to change the pension incentives. I'm advocating to manage this process. We know that people are going out. Let's make our plans. Let's get them ready, and let's make sure that they're there to take the responsibilities.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garth Turner Conservative Halton, ON
Okay. I understand that. It's not exactly creative thinking, but I understand that. But how does the turnover rate in the public service compare with that in the private sector?
4:30 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
When you consider retirement and all other departures, the turnover rate is around 3.6%, and in the private sector it's 8% or 9%. In the American government, it's higher. So it's low.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garth Turner Conservative Halton, ON
All right, we have a low turnover rate and a richer pension than in the private sector. That begs the question of whether we are hanging onto people who in the private sector would be cycled through to other jobs because they've reached their level of competence.
4:30 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
I think it's a different question, but it is a good question. The question is often put this way: Are you, in the public sector, in a position to hire people the way you want, and are you in a position to move people on or give them other opportunities or dismiss them as you would in other sectors? I think the general view is that in the public sector we have not moved and that we have more restrictions on dismissal than you do in the private sector.
That having been said, people are dismissed and people are moved along, but I don't think it's as easy in the public sector as it is in the private sector.
