Government Operations Committee on April 17th, 2007

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Would it be double? Would it be 16% versus 8%, or 10% versus 8%?

[Nicole Jauvin]

I think I saw a 15% drop-off rate. This is one of the issues we're grappling with. The PSC is looking at that and trying to sort out what exactly the problem is. We're not waiting for that. As I was saying, we have a range of things--tools for managers and specific initiatives--to promote the development of employment equity groups, and in particular, visible minorities.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Nicole Jauvin]

Karen was going to—

[Karen Ellis]

I want to add two thoughts, because it's obviously very, very important.

In some of our management and leadership development programs, they are smaller scale, things like the management trainee program, the career assignment program, and even the accelerated executive development program actually have very good numbers of employment equity representation. We're saying that we have some best practices here. When we really focus on it, we can get good results.

Just to tie back to what Madame Jauvin said earlier about public service renewal, you have to build in the thinking about the EE into your recruiting, your developing. And if you start with your planning, and it's a really explicit focus, you can actually make a difference. This is why the importance of all of those priorities meshing together with things like EE is really important.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

If you already have existing situations where that is happening, then it's simply a matter of trying to replicate that.

[Nicole Jauvin]

That's right.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I think one of the things that I heard was 88% of all new employees are hired as casual, term, or students. Do they go through the same rigorous process when you're recruiting them? They're the ones that end up with the full-time jobs. So if your pool there is not as varied as it should be, then that would make it more difficult for others to get in.

[Nicole Jauvin]

Terms actually go through a competitive process--terms over six months, to be precise. Casuals do not go through a competitive process, and because of that, they can only work 90 days for a department. Students, as I think you might be aware, go through a process as well. There is a huge data bank that the Public Service Commission keeps, and when you want to have a student, you can't just hire someone you want. You have to go through the Public Service Commission and it brings in a number of names who fit the criteria and you choose from those names. That's somewhat of a process. It's not as rigorous as an actual competition, but it's felt that for student employment the idea is to give people access to a job.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Okay.

Madame Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon.

Your agency has quite a challenge to meet, a sizeable task to carry out. I was reading Mr. Lynch's document to which you referred, Ms. Jauvin. It is a very nice document, but the recommendations have to be implemented. That leads me to a question for you, Ms. Jauvin. You have been at your post in the agency since September 5. Have you developed a strategic plan to implement that nice document?

[Nicole Jauvin]

Yes. I thought you would ask me if I had designed a plan for my agency.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

And I thought you would come with your strategic plan, which would have allowed us to see, by way of a chart, the direction you are taking and what you will be asking of departments. Could we get a copy of that chart?

[Nicole Jauvin]

The first step was to conduct an analysis and to agree on the nature of the problem.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Has that analysis been done?

[Nicole Jauvin]

Yes. After a number of discussions with deputy ministers who are on the committee and who advised the clerk, we agreed to the fact that there were a number of problems that had to be settled. I said a few words about them earlier. They are described much better in the clerk's report. We then said that we could not respond to all those priorities and deal with everything at the same time. That would have been impossible. We really have to face the facts: things have to be done one at a time, or else no progress can be made.

On the advice of the committee, the clerk decided to establish an action plan and identify four priorities. They form the basis of the action plan. I am convinced that the action plan contained in the report will lead to a series of concrete projects and initiatives.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I do not doubt that. Action plans lead to projects and initiatives.

You touched on integrated planning. If I am not mistaken, you have to start with proper strategic planning. This is a plan and not a planning process. You start with strategic planning, bringing together everything that will be needed. You then draw up a chart with the kind of individuals and public servants you will be needing over the next 5, 10, 15 or 20 years. After that, you have to find the people to fill the positions. You also have to search for the leaders—you spoke about leadership being part of your mandate—whom you will need. You also have to work with the unions. Has that been done? Where are things at?

You spoke to me about the plan. You have been working on it for six months. Did you conduct planning before incorporating the departments' processes? Don't forget that settling equity and fairness issues in a transparent manner throughout the public service would allow for strategic planning, for example, in the staffing of positions and psychological harassment and health problems due to the fact that there are not enough employees to do the work. Several committee members raised a lot of problems that might have been identified using a strategic planning chart.

[Nicole Jauvin]

In response to that question, I will say that each deputy minister—they are responsible for planning—is asked to conduct such integrated planning. Some departments are further ahead then others. There are departments that, for a number of reasons, have not made the necessary progress. Each deputy minister will be responsible for preparing an integrated human resources plan, and corporate and financial resources plans. But that takes time. In some departments, the process is well underway and almost completed. In others, it might take two or three years. These are cycles, and in each case the work has to be done carefully to get things right. Planning shows us what the needs are in each department.

However, it is not up to the agency to resolve problems at the Border Services Agency, for example. If Mr. Jolicoeur, the president, needs 1,000 customs officers, these are very specific functions. It is not a good idea to say that we should immediately establish a major, central program for the Border Services Agency. We want to know whether there is a need for people, and the number of people the Border Services Agency needs, but it is better placed to actually recruit them.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I am not saying you should develop a major program to manage the public service. I am simply asking you what the agency's program is, to show us that departments will carry out their work within the public service. That was all I was asking you.

I have a brief, supplementary question. Will you be using the comparative gender analysis that Status of Women Canada has been conducting over a number of years? That might help you understand the extent to which women are challenged within departments. Were you aware of that analysis?

[Nicole Jauvin]

Yes, I was aware of it. I have not examined the study personally, but for the people in charge of analyzing the plans, it is a very important aspect.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Should we bet that they won't use it?

[Nicole Jauvin]

I can ask them because—

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Simply because all of these wonderful reports are piled up on shelves, even though they cost Canada $20 million. Would you care to bet that they won't use it?

Madam, that is why I was asking you what your strategic planning was. It was simply because if you were to show us some nice orderly plan, as a committee, we could follow the steps. I am going to put a suggestion to our chair to allow you to do some strategic planning, and then you could come back and see us. That would enable us to support you in your work with the departments, which often do as they see fit.

[Nicole Jauvin]

We would be more than pleased to keep you abreast of our progress.