Government Operations Committee on June 12th, 2007

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much.

One of the things you mentioned was the possibility of moving the age of retirement up, and I thought that was interesting. We discussed that a little at our committee. I'm just wondering if you had focus groups of people who are close to retirement and how that was received by them.

[Judith L. MacBride-King]

That's a good question.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

If somebody is 54 or 55 years old and has a year left and we encourage them to stay until 57, is that something people are considering right now?

[Judith L. MacBride-King]

We didn't do focus groups. But Statistics Canada actually did a really interesting study of older Canadians and retirement. It might have been through the labour force study. I can't remember now. But they did ask people who were getting close to retirement when they wanted to retire, and when they wanted to retire was age 55. The age at which they actually thought they were going to retire was a little bit older.

The reality is, as we're learning, that lots of people don't have the financial resources to retire when they really want to. I should send you that study as well, because that is an important one for you to see how “close to” retirees and retirees answered. I don't remember all the results, but that struck me. If you have the choice as to when you would retire, it's young, young, young. But the reality is that they know.... Most will plan to retire long before age 60, and the majority before age 58.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Can you give me an idea of how the government is perceived in the market? You talked about people wanting a great place to work. They want opportunity. They want decent compensation. Is government perceived that way? Is it perceived as a place where you can make a decent living and have an interesting career?

[Judith L. MacBride-King]

I believe that government is seen as a place where you can make a decent living, depending on the occupation you're in. For example, if I'm a CEO, I sure wouldn't want to be flipping back into the public sector because I wouldn't want to leave my $1 trillion.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Let's say a young person coming up—

[Judith L. MacBride-King]

In our focus groups we asked students about their destination of choice. Was it the private sector or was it the public sector? With the exception of master's of public administration students, by far it was the private sector, because they have a stereotypical view, I would add, that somehow or other the private sector is sexier and has more to offer than the public sector. Their view of the public sector is also a stereotype: it's staid, there's no risk taking, no innovation, and no great technology, which is in fact often not the case.

That did come up. I am aware as well of the study, which one of your previous witnesses mentioned, done by D-Code, which is a consulting firm in Toronto, and Brainstorm Consulting in Vancouver. Of roughly 30,000 university students, when asked where they wanted to work, their second choice, next to IBM, was the Government of Canada. I thought that was really interesting. Actually, it was shocking, from my perspective, given what I had heard. I'm pleased to say that I don't know—

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

There may be some opportunities there.

[Judith L. MacBride-King]

There may be opportunities.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Having said that, you also spoke about “close touch”--I'm not sure of the exact term. It was something “touch”.

[Judith L. MacBride-King]

It was courting.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

If there is anything the government does not do, it is court. It is very impersonal. It's bureaucratic. We talked about that. There would have to be a huge change in strategy.

You're talking about people going to meet them at home to bring them on board. I think that is the future, actually. I think you are absolutely right. We will be chasing people, so there is going to have to be a very extreme change here in how we do things.

[Judith L. MacBride-King]

Absolutely.

Again, Monster.com is interesting, because, as you know, they're one of the biggest job boards in the world. They told us the five things job seekers desperately want to hear are, and I'm going to read this:

Fewer words in job descriptions—be more concise. Summarize the application requirements—I have no idea what half these jobs are looking for.

Make it easier to apply online.

Put it in layman's terms.

Eliminate useless jargon.

And the last point this fellow made was:

It would be nice to know a timeframe for a response to my application.

Again, I think it's true of other organizations as well. But face it, I think the federal public service has a major challenge in that context.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Just one last question. You also spoke about a workforce plan. Can you tell me what that entails? What's included in the workforce plan?

[Judith L. MacBride-King]

The best organizations start with, “What's the business, so where are we going?” What's the business of government? Each department would do that as well. It would roll down.

Our business is providing...well, name it. The CRA's business is collecting revenue for the future well-being of Canadians. I don't know what their vision is, but that's what I would say in my nice moment. So collecting revenue. What kind of people do we need to do that? Where are we going to be looking for revenue?

You'd start with the business and then you'd look at what types of positions, what types of skills you're looking for in those positions, and then you would develop strategies to get those skills. Again, a lot may be internal. There may be skills across government that could apply perfectly to these jobs in the CRA. How do you help them to get to where you want to be?

It may be investing in curriculum development or working with community colleges and universities to develop the type of people you want. It may be recruiting from abroad.

But you start with the business and work up. It's quite a process, for sure. It's quite technical, which I absolutely am not. But you start with the business, the philosophy, and the skills you need.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much.

[Judith L. MacBride-King]

A pleasure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We will go to Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much for coming today. We appreciate your testimony. You have brought us a lot of information, and we'll be looking at the studies you've referenced because I think they'll help us as we move forward.

I am from Alberta, so I think I have a perspective—

[Judith L. MacBride-King]

My sympathies.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Absolutely.

Up until a year and a bit ago I was hiring people, skilled tradespeople, so you can understand the difficulty in that.

That leads me to the question—When Madam Barrados was here, I asked her specifically, from my Alberta references, whether or not she felt there was an issue. She said lots of people are applying, so there's not a perceived problem.

Obviously, we know there are other problems, but is that a good indicator as to whether there are people in the workforce, simply because they're applying?

[Judith L. MacBride-King]

In seeing that testimony, I didn't think that was a very solid indicator. It's good to know people are applying, but again, they could be applying the shotgun approach I mentioned earlier.

My question would be—and my question was when I saw it—who is applying and what skills and competencies do they have? Are they applying to a specific position and do they have the skills and competencies for that position, or are they doing that shotgun approach?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Again, from my Alberta reference, what I have witnessed is the same thing you've witnessed with those two engineers who came to Calgary, that you are hired on the spot and it doesn't matter who you are or what you are. The private sector is doing it that way.

So that comes to the issue as to whether the federal government is doing anything about the length of time it takes to hire somebody. Obviously, it's something we could identify from your testimony today, that being a major stumbling block for the government.

In that lengthy time period of making a decision, do you know what is included and what accounts for the time being so much different from the private sector?

[Judith L. MacBride-King]

I can't answer that, I'm sorry. I have no idea.

I assume it's checks, rechecks, committees. I have no idea what goes on behind closed doors, and, quite frankly, I haven't wanted to know.