Government Operations Committee on June 14th, 2007

[Christiane Ouimet]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Access to legal services is a very positive feature. Even though the amount provided for these services may seem modest, people can choose good legal counsel who are familiar with the system and who can provide proper advice. It is also up to the Office of the Commissioner to offer the support required to provide technical interpretation of various aspects of the legislation. I also think it is important to work with the deputy head, who may be involved at some point, and to know whether a release occurred within the department.

I do not think the drafters of the legislation considered that this was part of the definition of harassment. That refers rather to a situation where there are reprisals in the workplace. We must look at what this means in practical terms. There is in fact a provision whereby employees may be relocated for 60 days, when necessary, so that they do not feel any pressure. Once whistleblowers are known, it is very difficult for them to function in their daily work environment.

Of course, the Commissioner must ensure that there is equity. We talk about equitable procedures and natural justice, and this mandate is very important. We must do everything required. Each case will be different, so I cannot speculate about situations that will arise.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I was pleased to see that in your presentation you focused on justice, understanding and assistance. However, whistleblowers do not necessarily have a financial problem to report. They may be speaking out against abusive behaviour on the part of a superior toward a subordinate or any other matter. How can whistleblowers be sure that they will not suffer reprisals afterwards?

These reprisals will not necessarily come from people from the same office. Reprisals could come from the regional level or from a deputy minister who has dealings with that particular workplace. You say that you are going to look into this matter, but at the moment there are people waiting to blow the whistle on wrongdoing. This morning, they are expecting to find out how far the act or your mandate allows you to go.

[Christiane Ouimet]

Madam Chair, the act provides a framework and the tools required to deal with the concerns raised by the member. The Commissioner's role will be to ensure that we look into all the facts and circumstances with proper diligence. It is difficult to provide more details without having a specific case before us, but I am quite sure, and I would like to assure the committee that the act provides an excellent framework with which to deal with these concerns.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

The Bloc Québécois has a number of problems with this legislation. I just mentioned one of them. It would be advisable, Ms. Ouimet, for you to clearly define your role and mandate at the beginning of your tenure.

In the past, there was a public service integrity officer who had certain powers under legislation. This particular individual tried to help whistleblowers. The 2002-03 Annual Report of Parliament mentioned a number of cases of harassment. I dealt with some of these cases myself. The issue remains the same: the Commissioner or the officer versus the power of the departments. I do not think the act gives you adequate power over the departments.

I get emotional when I talk about this, because there are over 29 cases that have never been settled. I know that you have only recently been nominated, but have you already set the priorities and objectives you would like to achieve during your tenure?

[Christiane Ouimet]

Thank you for the question. I have made careful note of your concerns.

I am interested in two aspects in particular. First, education, training, prevention and cooperation. We should not wait until a problem occurs. If we can educate people and work with the public service, we should do that in order to avoid disturbing situations.

I touched very quickly and briefly on the second point in my remarks, and I also discussed this with the acting commissioner as well. I am talking about settling disputes amicably to the advantage and satisfaction of the complainant. I want to see how we could settle disputes even more quickly, more fairly and more simply. Provision has been made for this as well, even as regards the establishment of the tribunal, with reference made to a conciliator.

I think these are tools that have not been tested. You are right there, but we must definitely use them. Of course, it is very early in the process, but those are the two priorities I would like to focus on. I would also like to take note of all the points raised here today and review them further.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I would just like to let Ms. Bourgeois know that in the past, there was no legislation, and that the Commissioner's role was set out in a policy. That individual did not really have the powers that Ms. Ouimet will have, because there is legislation governing her office's operations and she reports directly to Parliament. That was not exactly the case before.

We certainly tried to give the Commissioner sufficient authority to settle cases, but, of course, we will see what happens over time.

Go ahead, Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am pleased to see that you will have to stay independent of the Auditor General. You will be able to table reports in Parliament, with no hindrance from the ministers or departments. You will have the power to see that problems raised are disclosed to the public and that voters, politicians, and the media can find out about them in the course of your investigations of public servants' complaints. It gives you a great deal of independence. That's something that never existed in government before.

I would like to know the powers investigators in your office will have. First of all, will they be hired by you, rather than by the government?

[Christiane Ouimet]

As far as I understand it, the investigators will be hired under the Public Service Employment Act. There is a recruitment process in place, but the investigators will report to the Office of the Commissioner.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

And not to the government, not to Treasury Board—

[Christiane Ouimet]

No.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

They are employees, like the people working in the Office of the Auditor General.

[Christiane Ouimet]

That is correct.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

What powers will they have? For example, could they require that documents be produced in the course of their investigation? Will they have the authority to demand that documents be produced?

[Christiane Ouimet]

I would like to give you an analogy, if I may. When I chaired an appeal committee, there was also a parallel investigation office whose role was very similar to yours. There was a purely administrative precursor, who did not have the same powers as the office under the policy. We hope that people identified by the whistleblowers will cooperate willingly. As you know, the Commissioner has some fairly coercive powers. Subpoenas can be issued, but before we reach that stage, we have a whole range of tools we can use under the act.

There are or were many approaches of this type and many investigators of this type. I assume that the people involved in the investigations will act in good faith. If necessary, I will not hesitate as an officer of Parliament and as Commissioner to take all steps necessary to ensure that the documents, the evidence... As I mentioned earlier, we must have all the facts, all the evidence.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

You are going to require that certain things be done.

[Christiane Ouimet]

If necessary.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Exactly. That means you have a great deal of power.

[Christiane Ouimet]

Indeed.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Are you going to require people to answer questions?

[Christiane Ouimet]

Yes, and I think that is implicitly part of the power to require the production of documents. However, there is a reservation in the legislation regarding Cabinet confidences. I have taken note of that. There are some guidelines regarding the documents that can and must be produced.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

What type of individuals will you be hiring as investigators? Will they be former police officers or auditors?

[Christiane Ouimet]

Madam Chair, based on my experience at administrative tribunals, I would say it is important that these individuals be appointed according to the merit principle, that they be recognized for their rigour and for their integrity.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

More specifically—

[Christiane Ouimet]

You want to know what the basic requirements are?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I can think of many individuals with a variety of skills, but I would like to know what the specific requirements will be for investigators.