Evidence of meeting #10 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was advisers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
Mr. Albrecht, we do have a written submission. We didn't put it around because it is not translated. You will be getting it later this afternoon.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Thank you. I still say the written submission would have been helpful in understanding the verbal submission. The technicalities and the details of the complexities are obvious.
I want to follow up on a couple of questions. First of all, let's look at the number of applications: 5,800 applications, 109 positions filled. How does that compare with the number of positions you need to fill? You said there were 100 retirements, but what are the numbers necessary to fill your requirements?
Chair, Interdepartmental Compensation Consultants Committee
That was Treasury Board's or CPSA's number, 100 retiring. Those were the statistics they provided, and that's within the next five years. We have to say we find that number difficult to believe. In my department alone, within five years twenty of us will be leaving. And that's just one little area. So we are not sure if they meant in the NCR or nationally. Certainly it cannot be nationally.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
My question goes, I hope, deeper than that. If a certain number of people are retiring, obviously you need to replace them. But it would seem that there might also be a need to increase the numbers based on how many people were hired, the workload, and all of those things. What is the ideal number that you would need to fill the capacity deficit?
Interdepartmental Compensation Consultants Committee
We'd have to look at it department by department. I'm not sure that anyone here could do it today. We can speak to our own department: I think we're short seven or eight people.
Chair, Interdepartmental Compensation Consultants Committee
Yes, that's a good point. At DND, based on standards that should be used, we're short seven people.
I guess we look at it globally because in every department every one of us is working overtime. If you're working overtime, it means you don't have enough resources to do the job.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
So we don't have an ideal figure that would correct this deficit?
National Executive Vice-President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Remember that we have a group of members who work full-time for the government, who are leading a collective action for the compensation advisers community. They are not the employer. They don't have the information the employer has access to. They don't know how many transfers have taken place outside the compensation community. They don't know how many people have left for promotions or other jobs, jobs outside the federal government or at other agencies. That's information that only Treasury Board, the employer, is able to provide.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Moving on to the technology, I understand that some of the administrative system with Public Works is antiquated at best. How do you think this problem grew to be so far backlogged? Is it a lack of financial resources, or a failure in budgeting? Is it a lack of vision or planning? I'm having trouble understanding how a system like that could be allowed to deteriorate for 30 years and be that far behind. If anything, we should be leading the way.
Chair, Interdepartmental Compensation Consultants Committee
It's a good question. Madame Jolicoeur, in her response on December 12, basically said they have been attempting to get a modernized pay system since 1997.
Although we are not the employer, the compensation has emerged in these things as they evolve. I would say it's the complexity. I think Madame Jolicoeur said this clearly as well. It's the complexity of the required functions and payments that make it difficult to take an off-the-shelf program and say “Okay, here, make this work”. It was probably also financial restraint. That's our employer's role to address, but we certainly have been waiting decades to get a new pay system.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
It seems to me that because of the complexity we're dealing with, there should be a system in place to address this.
I don't know how much time I have.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
We talked about the different aspects of the government's action plan relating to consolidation, computerization, improvements, and centralization. Do you have any comments on the centralization aspect? Has that been a negative, a positive? How do you see it?
Chair, Interdepartmental Compensation Consultants Committee
Actually, we didn't get that they were looking at centralization of compensation services. In fact, when the question was asked about Matane, the development of a team in Matane, it was clearly stated that it was not decentralization but just locating a hybrid team elsewhere.
In the compensation community we've been very involved in service delivery models, because it has a huge impact on how we provide service. Some departments attempted to go to things like single discipline, where they broke up the team and went to full-blown call centres. It's interesting to note that they were the ones that ended up with the biggest backlogs.
Co-Chair, Interdepartmental Compensation Consultants Committee
These are the departments that were affected the most, and still are today.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Other than the issue of the classification, it seems to me that on the progress that's being made in terms of improving the infrastructure and recruitment there is some action being taken. I would urge us to be a little patient on those fronts and try to zero in on the classification issue.
Chair, Interdepartmental Compensation Consultants Committee
We would agree with you wholeheartedly, because it's been made very clear in their evidence that it will not be in the short term that we will see technology available that can address a lot of these.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to thank everyone who has come for your presence here and for taking an interest in this.
I think my wife thinks political life is dubious at the best of times, and I don't know if my colleagues would want to give you the same level of support, but I personally hold you responsible for me being able to keep selling political life to my wife, because the cheque does come in on a regular basis. You do yeoman's service on that front.
I am concerned, however, by what I've heard this morning, particularly what I'm hearing on the example in Industry Canada, where we have a two-year backlog of people getting back to issues on pensions--
Co-Chair, Interdepartmental Compensation Consultants Committee
It is Statistics Canada where we are working overtime. That is just one of the departments that is having these problems.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
We're bordering on deadbeat at that point. If it's two years, that is really shocking, and I don't think that standard can be accepted.
I'm looking at the issues that have been laid out here: the workload, the complexity of issues, the turnover you're getting because people can go elsewhere and get better pay for doing the same amount of work. On the issue of retirement, you said there are twenty people in your department. It seems to me that will be a virtual tsunami when it happens. Then, of course, there is the classification of staff. Out of that list, is there any one issue? We keep getting back to classification. Is that the premier issue to be addressed, and the other ones we work away from?
Chair, Interdepartmental Compensation Consultants Committee
In our opinion, yes. We will give CPSA credit where credit is due. They are working on the systems that will allow the transactional portion of our job to be more streamlined. The bottom line is it is not going to be developed within the next five years. We've been waiting over a decade now. We don't have great faith that it will.
What do we have that can happen today to retain the compensation advisers in compensation, and maybe encourage people not to retire so quickly? It boils down really to you can recruit all you want, but if you can't retain them it just won't work. So, yes, classification is a huge part of the problem, in our opinion.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I will put this question to Madame Ducharme. Again, you are the employee, not the employer, so I don't know if you have the answer.
In other aspects of the federal civil service, are there issues of classification? I have dealt with medical adjudicators and their fight to get reclassified. Are we looking at Treasury Board basically drawing the line on principle because if they give it to one group they're going to open the door to others? Is that part of what's happening here?